The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

RivetRider wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:34 pm
bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:03 am
Erd is 580mm. Download spokecalc from sheldon brown website and enter the numbers.

All spoke length queries start with downloading this spreadsheet and entering numbers. It's more versatile than other calculators as it does fractional crossings.
Hey again,

Punched in the numbers on Spocalc and got he same result. I assume that with this Hub/Rim combo that fractional crossings is not applicable to me?
Fractional crossings are need for odd wheels like 2:1 lacing or paired spoke patterns.

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

14g plain gauge spokes ha e to be the same weight as each other regardless of brand. 2.0 mm diameter stainless steel has the same density

To fix replace all spokes with sapim race or dt swiss competition and build it properly.

alcatraz
Posts: 2315
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

pier11 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:14 am
9 broken spokes. Heads lost. 8 from DS.
6 "pushing" DS spokes (heads in). Then 2 pulling spokes DS. Then 1 NDS.
1 or 2 spokes per long ride, not every ride.
Broken spoke makes wheel out of true every time. Requires to disengage rear (rim) brake completely to be able to continue ride.

Wheel (rear): 28h, 2x, 2500km
Rim: Alex R500 (20x20mm approx.; I guess R450 rim is the same thing.)
Hub: Novatec F162SB (I think)
Spokes: no name 14g straight guage (7 gram per 285mm spoke - much lighter than DT Champion, only 0.5 gram havier than DT Comp).

Rider: 72kg/160lbs, recreational rides 100km+. No races, no spints. Not often out of saddle.

I replaced broken spokes each time with DT Comp (Ritche branded). It never broke yet.

On 9 count I replaced all remaining 19 spokes with DT Comp. 250 km after - good so far.

Shall I attribute such failure to low quality spokes? Anything else is going on?

20191106_082445.jpg
Screenshot_2019-11-11-20-32-21.jpg
It'd probably be best if the spokes are all the same kind and age.

Breaking spokes means there is something wrong with the wheel.

How about a picture?

Remember that it's more important to achieve good tension than a perfectly true wheel. I broke a rim once obsessing over true when the rim was simply beyond "perfect true"-ability.

I'd also turn the elbows around on one side. I don't like it when pulling spokes are on the same side of the flanges. It means the rim moves sideways when torque is applied or released.

Get a cheap spoke tension meter. When spokes are crossed its almost impossible to "hear" the difference in tone with a tap test.

alcatraz
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

-

Spiduhman
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:24 am

by Spiduhman

Update: 31 months ago rebuilt rear wheel after reading this entire thread, wheel still rolling true, thanks to all, particularly the regulars.
Earlier this year, finally got around to rebuilding #1 bike rear wheel, still rolling true as well.
Regarding cxray nds choice, primarily for lighter spoke stretches more at same tension reasons, which the laser would do same, however, the cxray lays a bit flatter at the cross, and they (still do) look bitchin'

WI T11 hub, black; Hed C2 rim, 28 holes; Sapim race ds, cxray nds, 2x; even tension over dead true, both run out <.2mm
that's Jack.GIF

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Using thinner spokes because they stretch more does not improve reliability. Thin spokes make the wheel less stiff so it flexes more and the length changes the spokes see are larger. Fatigue is caused by length changes. The higher those length changes are the more fatigue the spokes see. Now the wheel may be stiff enough to be relaible for you but it wrong to say that is more relaible because you have made the wheel more flexible.

If what you say was true we would not build 36 spoke wheels with thicker spokes for 140kg riders.

Spiduhman
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:24 am

by Spiduhman

What I wrote "...lighter spoke stretches more at same tension..." is true.

Do thicker spoke ds impact reliability positively (vs cxray both sides)?

Any road, at the time (it's been a few years), I accepted case for lighter spokes nds, as made by respected wheel builder. Looks like same builder now goes 3x ds, 2x nds for same setup, 28 hole Hed C2 and WI T11 hub, not sure if he's still using heavier spokes ds (and don't care).

Etienne
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:41 am
Location: France

by Etienne

Spiduhman wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:07 am
What I wrote "...lighter spoke stretches more at same tension..." is true.

Do thicker spoke ds impact reliability positively (vs cxray both sides)?

Any road, at the time (it's been a few years), I accepted case for lighter spokes nds, as made by respected wheel builder. Looks like same builder now goes 3x ds, 2x nds for same setup, 28 hole Hed C2 and WI T11 hub, not sure if he's still using heavier spokes ds (and don't care).
The fact that lighter spokes stretch more is clear ... but this feature doesn't make wheels sturdier, stiffer and/or more reliable, just lighter.

I personnaly like CXray/aerolite spokes ... i have only build a few wheelset with other spokes during the last 20 years (I am not a professionnal builder, so I build for my own needs and some friends) ... but I am also a fervent supporter of "more spokes", I mean I prefer 2 more spokes than heavier ones.

My go-to aero light wheelset has 24/28 spokes, not 20/24 as the standard aero wheelset and I find them stiffer (and snappier) than the same rims with thicker spokes, but only 20/24. I even have a off-road 29" wheelset with flexy light rims that only retrued once in more than 10 years, and it was after a big crash, but 32/32 spokes.

In my opinion, if you need a stiffer/sturdier wheel, then you need (for the same hub/rim combo) : first more spokes, then thicker spokes.

robertbb
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

Etienne wrote:
My go-to aero light wheelset has 24/28 spokes, not 20/24 as the standard aero wheelset and I find them stiffer (and snappier) than the same rims with thicker spokes, but only 20/24.

In my opinion, if you need a stiffer/sturdier wheel, then you need (for the same hub/rim combo) : first more spokes, then thicker spokes.
I agree with 24/28 and Aerolites vs 20/24 and something thicker like Aerocomps. Wheels feel snappier and are likely stronger.

Seems DT Swiss goes the other way with its PR21 oxics though: 20/24 with Aerocomps.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Yes and that why dt swiss have made a mistake.

Nixster
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:30 pm

by Nixster

Track hubs advice please.

Complete ignorance here. Do they have to be 32h? I understand lateral stiffness is a big deal in track wheels but if I wanted to build some for road single speed duties as well then are there other options?

Likely rims would be 40 to 50mm carbon and probably tubs, because, well why not?

I’ve seen some cheap Miche hubs but they’re pretty weighty. Adding 32 spokes to each, even C X-rays would make for some seriously heavy hoops.

Cost is unfortunately a consideration.

Advice on other alternatives gratefully received!

alcatraz
Posts: 2315
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Nixster wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:55 pm
Track hubs advice please.

Complete ignorance here. Do they have to be 32h? I understand lateral stiffness is a big deal in track wheels but if I wanted to build some for road single speed duties as well then are there other options?

Likely rims would be 40 to 50mm carbon and probably tubs, because, well why not?

I’ve seen some cheap Miche hubs but they’re pretty weighty. Adding 32 spokes to each, even C X-rays would make for some seriously heavy hoops.

Cost is unfortunately a consideration.

Advice on other alternatives gratefully received!
I'm not an expert but track wheels are very narrow and in the rear at least subjected to serious torque when taking off from a standstill.

If you don't need the torque resistance and aero benefit in a velodrome then use fewer spokes and common rims (wider).

pier11
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:38 pm
Location: USA

by pier11

bm0p700f wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:07 am
To fix replace all spokes with sapim race or dt swiss competition and build it properly.
alcatraz wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:42 am
Remember that it's more important to achieve good tension than a perfectly true wheel. I broke a rim once obsessing over true when the rim was simply beyond "perfect true"-ability.

Get a cheap spoke tension meter. When spokes are crossed its almost impossible to "hear" the difference in tone with a tap test.
Thanks for advise, gentlemen

I've rebuilt the wheel with DT Swiss Competition spokes. Hope it's much better now.
110kgf DS for narrow shallow rim I put.
My first build.
AlexR500-28h.png
Alex R500 28h rear, Novatec F162SB, DT Swiss Competition

bm0p700f
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Posts: 5031
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
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by bm0p700f

Nixster wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:55 pm
Track hubs advice please.

Complete ignorance here. Do they have to be 32h? I understand lateral stiffness is a big deal in track wheels but if I wanted to build some for road single speed duties as well then are there other options?

Likely rims would be 40 to 50mm carbon and probably tubs, because, well why not?

I’ve seen some cheap Miche hubs but they’re pretty weighty. Adding 32 spokes to each, even C X-rays would make for some seriously heavy hoops.

Cost is unfortunately a consideration.

Advice on other alternatives gratefully received!
I built with lower spoke counts for track wheels. 32h is just what popular.

Light cheap track dont exist. mack hubs are light and 200 eurosfor a pair. Get those.

by Weenie


Smitty2k1
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:15 pm

by Smitty2k1

First time trying to build my own wheels.
Pacenti Forza Aysmmetric Disc 650b rims
Shimano 105 R7070 hubs 32h
Sapim race spokes
Dt swiss brass nipples
Roger Mussens book
Spoke wrench
$300 total

First set of rubber for these will be WTB Horizons I got for a song. Will look at upgrading to Rene Herse after they wear. Wheels are going on a Black Mountain Road+ I'm building up as a general adventure and century ride bike.

See attached for a lacing photo and part weights
20191121_200553.jpg
20191120_202530.jpg
20191120_202515.jpg
20191120_202506.jpg
Last edited by Smitty2k1 on Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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