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Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:47 pm
by bm0p700f
Wind up is easily felt withm I have never marked a spoke to see wind up. With lasers use alloy nipples and sapim nipple freeze with washers. Wind up is no longer an issue. With brass nipples stick to silver as black brass nipples can have higher thread friction.

If your getting wind up you've done something wrong.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:47 pm
by Weenie

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:01 pm
by WinterRider
bm0p700f wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:47 pm
Wind up is easily felt withm I have never marked a spoke to see wind up. With lasers use alloy nipples and sapim nipple freeze with washers. Wind up is no longer an issue. With brass nipples stick to silver as black brass nipples can have higher thread friction.

If your getting wind up you've done something wrong.
No.. your per usual using your broad brush strokes.
:thumbup:

Alloy nips are a short cut... and some do fail.. always at the most inopportune time. Washers are not applicable in many builds. Freeze is just that.. another PITA to deal with.

When said spoke winds... where is that index point then? Send them out wound and they relax throwing the true out. Indexing is simple.. when the issue is in play.

Traced my albeit few issues w windup to a set of Lasers w short 2.0 sections going into the BRASS nip. Sapim must I guess furnish different configurations for various length ranges.

Wind up is a function of several variables..one of which is the tendency of spokes like Laser to wind up.

:smartass: The brass nip world vs the alloys.. only Q becomes.. when one of the alloy cheaters is broke down w alloy nip wheel business in TimBucToo w no chg on the cell.. does the brass alloy guy have to stop? :noidea:

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 pm
by bm0p700f
Well given I use alloy nipple alot and seem to avoid failures I must be doing something right. Also if a wheel is a pain to build i would not build it. So one again winter rider your comments are based on generalisations.

With lasers like any spokes I stress relieve to such an extent that there is no wind up left. When stressing a wheel I dont even here pinging. That how well I manage it. So blunty when I say, if you get wind up your doing something wrong, I mean it. If I can avoid so can everyone else.

A few years ago I had issues with black brass nipples and black lasers which resulted in chronic windup. It was after that I switched to alloy nipples for laser spokes and if I use brass niples then they are always silver now. There were some lasers in black a few years ago that had oxide coating that somehow increased friction as well. Those spokes were almost unusable. All the spokes for the last three or 4 years have been perfect from sapim so what ever the issue was it even resolved.

If a rim has eyelets then it does not need washers. If the rim has no eyelets and a nipple bed thick ess of 2mm or less then washers should be used. If the rim has a nipple thickness bed of 3mm or more then washers are not needed
If your building with a carbon rim then washers must be used. If the rim cannot take sapim hm washers and it otherwise fits the criteria for washers then it not I a rim I go near. that how I solve that problem.

Given the number of wheel i build and the failure rate that almost non existent there must be something to my method. Which is why i try to explain it.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:37 pm
by WinterRider
bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 pm
Well given I use alloy nipple alot and seem to avoid failures I must be doing something right. Also if a wheel is a pain to build i would not build it. So one again winter rider your comments are based on generalisations.

With lasers like any spokes I stress relieve to such an extent that there is no wind up left. When stressing a wheel I dont even here pinging. That how well I manage it. So blunty when I say, if you get wind up your doing something wrong, I mean it. If I can avoid so can everyone else.

A few years ago I had issues with black brass nipples and black lasers which resulted in chronic windup. It was after that I switched to alloy nipples for laser spokes and if I use brass niples then they are always silver now. There were some lasers in black a few years ago that had oxide coating that somehow increased friction as well. Those spokes were almost unusable. All the spokes for the last three or 4 years have been perfect from sapim so what ever the issue was it even resolved.

If a rim has eyelets then it does not need washers. If the rim has no eyelets and a nipple bed thick ess of 2mm or less then washers should be used. If the rim has a nipple thickness bed of 3mm or more then washers are not needed
If your building with a carbon rim then washers must be used. If the rim cannot take sapim hm washers and it otherwise fits the criteria for washers then it not I a rim I go near. that how I solve that problem.

Given the number of wheel i build and the failure rate that almost non existent there must be something to my method. Which is why i try to explain it.
Thinking you do a fair job of sellin' your wares. Wondering why you bother on this trivia.... per time.

I do not build specific sets like yourself... dealing w used, bargains, repairs/'bending back'... of all flavors... et al. Lots of variations... given the Laser is one of the best spokes.. no doubt.

In one respect being in the wheel trade means builds where the territory is known so to speak.. all the angles/techniques are routine. Methinks it's obvious yourself and all the other wheel pro's around here do things well. Yet....

Lots of 'roll your own' types lurk here looking for practical tips.. experience. Lasers will/do wind. Indexing is job one IMO... IF.. you want the wheel to stand. Any windup down the road will means wobbles later... almost any spoke can be 'wound' under high tensions .. given right circumstances.

Kinlin rims... sidebar.. as always. Had a wallyworld rear wheel a friend asked me for a looksee.. seems the grandchild had done a curb over at a good clip.. + Roughly 1.5" otta round... ah the challenge. 8) So I backed off the tension still on board and took to attempting to render said wheel/rim to the trash. NOT to be... joint did not give-in to the fury. Brought back to tension.. dang near round. All happy.. that one I chg'd some for.... real nice lunch.

Kinlin's are tough well made rims. :beerchug:

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:39 pm
by Marin
Speaking of windup, here's a pic a friend sent me after he tried to true his carbon clinchers. No, he doesn't have a spoke holder :shock: :shock: :shock:

Image

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:19 pm
by Calnago
Ha, that’s not windup, that’s purposeful “art”.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:28 pm
by Etienne
Marin wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:39 pm
Speaking of windup, here's a pic a friend sent me after he tried to true his carbon clinchers. No, he doesn't have a spoke holder :shock: :shock: :shock:
That's impressive ... there's probably a lot of friction between the nipple and the spoke thread ... in need of a little bit of lubrication

I'd say that in this case, even a spoke holder wouldn't have been sufficient ... the twist may occure between the nipple and the spoke holder, then the spoke would just snap.

Very artistic anyway ... your friend now have to complete exactly the same twist on every other spoke :mrgreen:

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:51 pm
by Calnago
Agreed... those threads had to have been either seized up or bottomed out. But artistic nonetheless.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:25 pm
by CallumRD1
Definetely looks termininal. I'm impresesed he managed to put that much force through a spoke wrench!

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:02 pm
by bm0p700f
It is surprising how many people just blunder into a wheel. Even with a spoke holder you ha e to careful worh cx Ray's.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:29 pm
by Marin
These are probably Pillar 1420, so even slightly lighter than CX Ray...

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:35 pm
by NovemberDave
bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 pm
A few years ago I had issues with black brass nipples and black lasers which resulted in chronic windup. It was after that I switched to alloy nipples for laser spokes and if I use brass niples then they are always silver now. There were some lasers in black a few years ago that had oxide coating that somehow increased friction as well. Those spokes were almost unusable. All the spokes for the last three or 4 years have been perfect from sapim so what ever the issue was it even resolved.
This almost drove me out of my mind, and I found it with all Sapim spokes not just Lasers. Sapim never had anything to say about it - "no, we haven't heard anything from any other builders" - but every other builder I talked to (A LOT!) was going insane with it. Alloy nipples didn't even improve it for me. We started re-rolling every thread on every spoke. And then it went away just as quickly.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:28 am
by WinterRider
I've come to realize also some of the issues I had w Lasers where the spoke threads and/or nip threading. Occasionally a spoke nip would start harder... even removal w re-threading in hand off the wheel would felt wrong. Sometimes using another nip helped.. sometimes not. Very infrequent issue.. most everything made today has recreational QC oversight. :roll:

Had a Kinlin 200 rear 16-8 triplet break a spoke.. DS outbound ..near the elbow pointing to builder error.. mine. That wheel would not 'stay put' on assembly-- when one tries to knock it otta true on the floor.. pressure applied side to axle ends. (The "NOS" *bay rim --->wasn't LOL.. got it adjusted for a very cost effective set.) Went to riding it in line w experimentation.. how many miles before the *Sargent spoke let go. That be just north of 3000 miles... spoke replacement once home this spring made for more of same.. wheel not settling in. Figured the 24H rim for a 'front' on future rebuild.. last efforts found me de-tentioning completely the 3-4 spokes in the zone giving the true-ness issue/s. Tubeless mind you w tire installed.. much care given not to loose the thread's into the rim. Wiped the threads.. lubed them and drop or so more into the nip seat.. wham..it worked.

Wheel in staying 'put'.. why.. only a few guesses. 200 been noted as rough-ish... internally valve holes... a burr or ?.. dunno. Possible spoke issue.. threads and/or a degree of windup .. ? Combo of all... dunno. Maybe the recanting of this will give a newer recreational builder some insights later on...

Rim hole de-burring... I'd like to score ..make a bit for the drill.. that does not cut metal. All I'm wanting is a smoothing.. minor polishing of that surface. Possibly something already in commerce I'm not aware of?

*Sargent spoke.. my moniker for that spoke under stress over the range of the build. Happens at times.. mostly seen in repairs whereas the rim has real issue/s. Always to be avoided.. came to pass/coined here cleaning up noob builds. Tensions all over creation.........

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:01 pm
by bm0p700f
I honestly cant follow what you have written.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:26 pm
by patchsurfer
Am I right in thinking that as far as hubs with proper ball bearings go, Shimano and Campag are the only shows in town these days?

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:26 pm
by Weenie