The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
dim
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

Hi Guys .... I need some advice

I bought a 1985 Miyata 1000 touring bike and I'm looking at changing the wheelset ... I'm planning some solo tours, the first one being a wild camping/fishing trip from Cork around the south/ south west coast of Ireland and back to Cork (approx 600 Km)

I want to keep the bike as original as possible (should I wish to enter a L'Eroica ride) .... so whatever I change now, I'd like to swop that with the original parts (the bike came with the original Miyata 32 wide Radial tyres and they still look brand new (bike was hardly ridden and was stored in an attic since 1985 .... in mint condition)

I weigh 73 kg (should drop to approx 67kg once I start riding longer distances), and I'm looking for a strong wheelset that I can use for touring (with a tent, sleeping bag etc etc) .... not sure what all of that will weigh with the large Ortlieb 70l pannier bags, tent, etc but I am hoping to travel as light as possible (will buy food and beer along the way)

Current wheels are the original Araya with 40 spokes per wheel. I'm looking at getting a Son Deluxe wide dynamo, and I'm still not sure of the rear hub (leaning towards a Phil Wood Hub) .... rear spacing is 126mm but I may get my LBS/wheelbuilder to change that to 130mm .... at prestent, I have 5 speed with a triple biopace crank in the front (not sure what to use when I get new wheels built)? No complaints so far with the Biopace and I had a proper bike fit last week .... I'm very comfortable on this bike and it will be great for long distances

I want to use tubeless tyres and can fit 38's easily on my frame/mudguards .... I'm currently using Conti 5000 clinchers in 32 (I use this bike as my daily commuter (40+ km/day)....

for the trip to Ireland, i'm looking closely ate the Panaracer Gravel King SK TLC in 38 (tubeless)

I have HED Belgium Plus rims with Chris King R45 ceramic bearing hubs on my Trek Emonda SL and am very happy with them .... I was thinking of getting Hed Belgium Plus rims (32/32) for the bike .... max load on these according to the Hed site is 105Kg .... so is there better

any suggestions?

.
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

dont spread the stays. Keep it as it is. The front hub choice is perfect. the rear being 126mm is limiting but Zenith make some large flange freewheel hubs that will do the job and look the part.

As for rims I dont think the HED rims will look right. the look right on a modern trek but maybe not on an 80's's bike. Ryde make the EDdge R13 in polished silver and it s 24mm wide box section rim in polished silver that tubeless compatible. I imagine the conti GP5000s tyres would be tight on these rim as IRC tyres are also tight. I would not use the conti's for touring but something like the gravel king or the IRC Boken. It really depends on how much off road your going to do. WTB do nice brown wall tyres. I think the WTB or the gravel kings with brown/tan wall would be good.

36H drilling for the rear as well. dont bank on weight loss. A box section rim handling load needs this spoke count. I have averaging 600km a week and my weight has not dropped. I just eat more.

Keep the bio pace chainset. You shouldbe able to fit a 7 speed freewheel and 13-32T I think are avialble. 13-28T from sunrace certainly are. That will be enough for the hills.

The best thing about the above comb it will be alot cheaper than the Phil/Son/HED combo your were thinking off while still being completmentary to the bike and still be a reliable wheelset. The only "issue" would be the reliability if the freewheel but the sunrace freeewheels are cheap. so every 2000 miles bin the chain and freewheel and stick a new one on. Cost £25 in parts if a KMC 8 speed chain is used.

Your not going to improve this bike by sticking expensive wheels on it. Old bike rock.

by Weenie


alcatraz
Posts: 2308
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

With only 4mm difference I bet you could (in a roadside emergency) fit a 130mm hub by just flexing the stays. There is your touring insurance as far as parts compatibility goes...

User avatar
WinterRider
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

dim wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:33 pm
Hi Guys .... I need some advice

I bought a 1985 Miyata 1000 touring bike and I'm looking at changing the wheelset ... I'm planning some solo tours, the first one being a wild camping/fishing trip from Cork around the south/ south west coast of Ireland and back to Cork (approx 600 Km)

I want to keep the bike as original as possible (should I wish to enter a L'Eroica ride) .... so whatever I change now, I'd like to swop that with the original parts (the bike came with the original Miyata 32 wide Radial tyres and they still look brand new (bike was hardly ridden and was stored in an attic since 1985 .... in mint condition)

I weigh 73 kg (should drop to approx 67kg once I start riding longer distances), and I'm looking for a strong wheelset that I can use for touring (with a tent, sleeping bag etc etc) .... not sure what all of that will weigh with the large Ortlieb 70l pannier bags, tent, etc but I am hoping to travel as light as possible (will buy food and beer along the way)

Current wheels are the original Araya with 40 spokes per wheel. I'm looking at getting a Son Deluxe wide dynamo, and I'm still not sure of the rear hub (leaning towards a Phil Wood Hub) .... rear spacing is 126mm but I may get my LBS/wheelbuilder to change that to 130mm .... at prestent, I have 5 speed with a triple biopace crank in the front (not sure what to use when I get new wheels built)? No complaints so far with the Biopace and I had a proper bike fit last week .... I'm very comfortable on this bike and it will be great for long distances

I want to use tubeless tyres and can fit 38's easily on my frame/mudguards .... I'm currently using Conti 5000 clinchers in 32 (I use this bike as my daily commuter (40+ km/day)....

for the trip to Ireland, i'm looking closely ate the Panaracer Gravel King SK TLC in 38 (tubeless)

I have HED Belgium Plus rims with Chris King R45 ceramic bearing hubs on my Trek Emonda SL and am very happy with them .... I was thinking of getting Hed Belgium Plus rims (32/32) for the bike .... max load on these according to the Hed site is 105Kg .... so is there better

any suggestions?

.
Have a set of those wheels sitting another bike...w 40H rear. You could use SAME set.. see if a 7 freewheel will clear. My 40H had enough space to do a 7.. of course the rear de needs adjusting. I added a thin washer to the spacing stack rt... clears fine on a Schwinn of same era.

Or.. get the axle spacing chg'd and redish.. wouldn't take much. Those wheels are not the heaviest by any means.. and of course plenty strong at 36/40Rear.

My complaint.. with the 610 was the crank gearing. 52-42- think 30. I have never seen a tourer.. going down the rd w much speed. Think the original gearing on those models could leave one walking up a steep grade .. especially on a windy day under loaded conditions.

That era Miyata is a great bike... enjoy!
Litespeed 2000 Appalachian 61 cm
Litespeed 1998 Blue Ridge 61cm

Fitness rider.. 2 yrs from seven decades age.

That is my story and I'm stick'n to it.

bm0p700f
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

126mm spacing will take a 7 speed or it should, that after all is the point of 126mm spacing.

Spreading the stays is possible but you may still have chain/sprocket clearance issues. Spreading the stats I easy but then aligning the dropouts is a bit more tricky. This is more important if fitting 11 speed.

However you have an original bike in good condition so why molest it. When customers come and ask for the stats to be spread I always say yes that's possible but I have options to keep it original. I generally manage to persuade people to go with an alternative.

For example if you used a 126mm spaced hub with a free hub like an older shimano set you can go 9 speed. Take a miche 10 speed shimano cassette perhaps the 12-29t and remove the 14t sprocket. You then have a cassette that's fits into the 7 speed freehub but has 9 sprocket with 10 speed spacing.

Lots of solutions with out spreading stays which keeps the bike as it was built.

dim
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:55 pm
dont spread the stays. Keep it as it is. The front hub choice is perfect. the rear being 126mm is limiting but Zenith make some large flange freewheel hubs that will do the job and look the part.

As for rims I dont think the HED rims will look right. the look right on a modern trek but maybe not on an 80's's bike. Ryde make the EDdge R13 in polished silver and it s 24mm wide box section rim in polished silver that tubeless compatible. I imagine the conti GP5000s tyres would be tight on these rim as IRC tyres are also tight. I would not use the conti's for touring but something like the gravel king or the IRC Boken. It really depends on how much off road your going to do. WTB do nice brown wall tyres. I think the WTB or the gravel kings with brown/tan wall would be good.

36H drilling for the rear as well. dont bank on weight loss. A box section rim handling load needs this spoke count. I have averaging 600km a week and my weight has not dropped. I just eat more.

Keep the bio pace chainset. You shouldbe able to fit a 7 speed freewheel and 13-32T I think are avialble. 13-28T from sunrace certainly are. That will be enough for the hills.

The best thing about the above comb it will be alot cheaper than the Phil/Son/HED combo your were thinking off while still being completmentary to the bike and still be a reliable wheelset. The only "issue" would be the reliability if the freewheel but the sunrace freeewheels are cheap. so every 2000 miles bin the chain and freewheel and stick a new one on. Cost £25 in parts if a KMC 8 speed chain is used.

Your not going to improve this bike by sticking expensive wheels on it. Old bike rock.
thanks Malcolm .... much appreciated! ... I will research your recomendations
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

dim
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

WinterRider wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:02 am
dim wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:33 pm
Hi Guys .... I need some advice

I bought a 1985 Miyata 1000 touring bike and I'm looking at changing the wheelset ... I'm planning some solo tours, the first one being a wild camping/fishing trip from Cork around the south/ south west coast of Ireland and back to Cork (approx 600 Km)

I want to keep the bike as original as possible (should I wish to enter a L'Eroica ride) .... so whatever I change now, I'd like to swop that with the original parts (the bike came with the original Miyata 32 wide Radial tyres and they still look brand new (bike was hardly ridden and was stored in an attic since 1985 .... in mint condition)

I weigh 73 kg (should drop to approx 67kg once I start riding longer distances), and I'm looking for a strong wheelset that I can use for touring (with a tent, sleeping bag etc etc) .... not sure what all of that will weigh with the large Ortlieb 70l pannier bags, tent, etc but I am hoping to travel as light as possible (will buy food and beer along the way)

Current wheels are the original Araya with 40 spokes per wheel. I'm looking at getting a Son Deluxe wide dynamo, and I'm still not sure of the rear hub (leaning towards a Phil Wood Hub) .... rear spacing is 126mm but I may get my LBS/wheelbuilder to change that to 130mm .... at prestent, I have 5 speed with a triple biopace crank in the front (not sure what to use when I get new wheels built)? No complaints so far with the Biopace and I had a proper bike fit last week .... I'm very comfortable on this bike and it will be great for long distances

I want to use tubeless tyres and can fit 38's easily on my frame/mudguards .... I'm currently using Conti 5000 clinchers in 32 (I use this bike as my daily commuter (40+ km/day)....

for the trip to Ireland, i'm looking closely ate the Panaracer Gravel King SK TLC in 38 (tubeless)

I have HED Belgium Plus rims with Chris King R45 ceramic bearing hubs on my Trek Emonda SL and am very happy with them .... I was thinking of getting Hed Belgium Plus rims (32/32) for the bike .... max load on these according to the Hed site is 105Kg .... so is there better

any suggestions?

.
Have a set of those wheels sitting another bike...w 40H rear. You could use SAME set.. see if a 7 freewheel will clear. My 40H had enough space to do a 7.. of course the rear de needs adjusting. I added a thin washer to the spacing stack rt... clears fine on a Schwinn of same era.

Or.. get the axle spacing chg'd and redish.. wouldn't take much. Those wheels are not the heaviest by any means.. and of course plenty strong at 36/40Rear.

My complaint.. with the 610 was the crank gearing. 52-42- think 30. I have never seen a tourer.. going down the rd w much speed. Think the original gearing on those models could leave one walking up a steep grade .. especially on a windy day under loaded conditions.

That era Miyata is a great bike... enjoy!
thanks!
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

nismosr
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 5:15 pm

by nismosr

Anybody Can recommend a master wheel builder around NJ area ?
- 2018 Colnago V2-R TNMR - Campagnolo SR EPS - Lightweight Gen III - P2Max
- 2017 Colnago Concept CHDB - Campagnolo SR EPS - Bora One 50 - Deda Superzero - Stages
- 2015 Cipollini RB800 - Campagnolo Athena EPS - Bora One 35 - P2Max

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 5030
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

Never tell a wheel builder they are a master wheel builder and it is perhaps wise to avoid those that use that term to describe themselves.

I stopped being master Borg when I was 16. That the first thing wrong with he master title.

joejack951
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

dim wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:33 pm
rear spacing is 126mm but I may get my LBS/wheelbuilder to change that to 130mm
I've installed 130mm wheels in several 126mm frames including a few aluminum Cannondales and a 24" Orbea kids bike with super short chain stays. The Orbea was built with a Tiagra 4700 group using custom wheels built with 105 5800 hubs. My 1984 Trek runs 105 5800 11 speed, again, with no issues.

Image

Image

alcatraz
Posts: 2308
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

joejack951 wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:18 pm
That trek 660 looks great. I bet it rides nice on 105 :thumbup:

Edit: I've been looking at it for 5 min now. How is this bike staying upright? Tell me your secret... :lol:

joejack951
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

alcatraz wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:26 am
joejack951 wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:18 pm
That trek 660 looks great. I bet it rides nice on 105 :thumbup:

Edit: I've been looking at it for 5 min now. How is this bike staying upright? Tell me your secret... :lol:
Thanks! It's a nice bike, no doubt. I kinda wish a splurged on a silver Campy group for it but 105 was super cheap at the time and the frame isn't all that special. Trek made a few higher end frames the same year which would be deserving of a really special build. I happened to have this one sitting around (cheap, Ebay purchase) and upon discovering that my old Mavic Cosmos wheels would accept a Shimano 11 speed cassette it was an easy decision to do a 105 build.

If you go to Flickr and look at the higher resolution photo there is a tiny telltale sign of the support visible near the NDS pedal. I have a piece of a clear polycarbonate sheet with a notch that fits the pedal spindle which, on a non-breezy day, nicely holds the bike upright and is nearly invisible.

If you want to see more trickery, take a close look at the fork, headset, and stem and figure out how I managed that :D

And that ends my thread diversion.

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pashax
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:48 pm
Location: London

by pashax

I will be bulding up a new wheelset : DT Swiss R460 , Campagnolo Mirage hubs and Sapim Leader spokes.
32 spokes front and rear 3x .
Front rim: 292mm
Rear rim: nds 291.4mm / ds 289.6mm
I presume that I should round down for nds and round up for ds , right ?
Are there any benefits going for lighter spokes , since I am not very heavy (71kg) ? However, I do not want to sacrifice the durability.
"If you brake, you do not win". MC

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Leader spokes will make your wheels feel sluggish.

You can build a fine aet with those rims and hubs with laser front and race rear. You could get away with laser rear too.

Dont use leaders. The only reason why they exist is because they are cheap. The 13g leaders are useful for e bikes though.
Last edited by bm0p700f on Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


User avatar
WinterRider
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:21 pm
Leader spokes will make your wheels feel sluggish.

You can build a fine aet with those rims and hubs with laser front and race rear. You could get away with laser rear too.

Dont use leaders. The only reason why they exist is because they are cheap. The 13g leaders are useful for bikes though.
Minor downside w Lasers... spoke windup which the infrequent builder is prone to accomplish. That of course reeks havoc w spoke life. I read past online per the tighten and auto return of tension Lasers to avoid windup.. which isn't fool proof. You need to index mark them... felt pen which wipes off easily once finished.

The Leader makes them sluggish... dunno.. depends on the tire selection which has huge effect on felt rolling resistance. Sapim makes the double butted which are 20% lighter than Leaders.. fairly cost efficient.

Yet if one is building wheels from 'scratch' the cost of the spokes shouldn't be an issue if one rides some mileage.
Litespeed 2000 Appalachian 61 cm
Litespeed 1998 Blue Ridge 61cm

Fitness rider.. 2 yrs from seven decades age.

That is my story and I'm stick'n to it.

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