The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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shimmeD
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:52 pm
Location: eNZed

by shimmeD

It also depends on the bed on the rim how nicely the curvature plays with the tub. Being ww, just get the 23, like I did (Farsport 266g), and run a 22 or 23 tub on the front at least.
Less is more.

RivetRider
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:17 pm

by RivetRider

Hello wheelbuilders,

I'm looking to put together my first set of wheels, here is my plan...

Rims: Light Bicycle U-shape 45mm tubeless compatible
Hubs: Bitex Raf9/Rar10
Spokes; Sapim CX Ray
Nipples: Suggestions??? Planning on using for mostly summer rider and the occasional winter ride, Alu vs Brass?
Rim tape: Tesa (thanks cycle clinic)
Tyres: Hutchinson/Mavic tubeless
Sealant: Effeto mariposa (although looking for something a bit thicker)

Does anyone know a good source of information instructing novices on building their first wheelset/have any comments/suggestons about what components I am planning to use. Also if anyone knows where I can get any of them on the cheap at the moment I would be upmost greatful!

Thanks!
have you tried riding your bike harder?

by Weenie


shimmeD
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:52 pm
Location: eNZed

by shimmeD

wheel fanatyk blog: like!
Less is more.

DamonRinard
in the industry
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

by DamonRinard

WinterRider wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:52 pm
I say .. where is the black and white data?
Hi WinterRider,

I haven't been able to measure any difference in spring rate due to different air volume.
Instead, the data suggest pressure alone drives spring rate. (At least among the high-end tires of similar construction tested.)

Not sure how a FB link might show up in this forum, but here's some data in a graph: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Cheers,
Damon
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

wolfesquire
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:03 am

by wolfesquire

Rebuilding some wheels and thinking of changing the spokes to Sapim CX-Sprints. I weigh about 91kg and have been recommended these spokes over the stock ones as they are better for us heavy riders....is this correct?

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Change your spokes if you start breaking them. You can rebuild with CX sprints but if the job is done badly then you'll be worse off.

alcatraz
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I'd like to ask if sapim spokes are a bit softer in general?

Seems taiwanese spokes like pillar/cn have less deflection for a given tension.

I also heard a rumor that wheels built light with sapim are more prone to brake rub and that they should go with "pillar". Any truth to this?

/a

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Spoke stiffness is dependent on the dimensions and shape not who makes it. The Young's modulus of the steels used is very similar if not the same.

Sapim make a very stiff aero spoke called the CX force. I buy them but they oem only. They actually make many aero spokes.

Compare like with like not apples and oranges.

Marin
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Exactly, stiffness is only determined by spoke cross sectional area and material (which is ususally steel).

Even spoke tension does *not* affect stiffness.

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svendsvin
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:27 pm

by svendsvin

Pillar 1422 spokes are made from 2mm-1.6mm-2mm spokes vs
cx-ray who are 2mm-1.5mm-2mm

Pillar 1420 are 2mm-1.5mm-2mm like cx-ray

http://www.pillarspoke.com/p03-2_butted_aero.htm

alcatraz
Posts: 1295
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I'm referring to forging process differences and other such influences on performance other than dimension.

I know that steel is steel but I sometimes on rare occasion get indications that it maybe isn't. I can on the top of my head recall three instances.

1. When a new lighter spoke is introduced claiming higher tensile strength for a smaller crosssectional area like megalite ss or super cx and so on.

2. Respectable (in my book) youtuber ozcycle seeing a pattern among his riding mates having generally more brake rub with sapim and less with pillar.

3. My recent purchase of a tensionometer that in its conversion table shows, for similar crossectional area, spokes with a larger measured deflection for some spokes (including sapim) compared to other spokes (like pillar/cn) at same tension. (pillar xtra 1420, sapim cx-ray, cn424)

I'm just worried there is a pattern here. I haven't built a wheel with sapim yet but I'm hesitating a bit to pay the premium price.

Is it possible they are more elastic?

/a

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I did my degree in materials engineering. The one thing I know is you worries and not grounded in physics.

Brake rub happens because a stiff rim is used that is not properly supported by the spokes so when the wheel is side loaded the rim does not bend. The way to stop this is to up the spoke count or use thicker spokes not use a different brand of spokes. that you tuber is talking junk like most of them. your youtuber is not likely to be comparing the same rim, hub and spoke count with only the spoke varying. Then add a pillar spoke is not a copy of a sapim so yes they are different. Then add the different side loads not measured that each rider generates and you have a receipe for nonsense.

Similar cross section is not the same that why the different spokes show differing deflections.

What you paying for with sapim is the consistancy of the spokes.

Dont get your physics from babbling you tubers it all junk. Instead read up and think logically. Then again if people did that we would resolve all the worlds problems and everyone would build good wheels and I would be out of business. on second thoughts keep listening to babbling you tubers.

alcatraz
Posts: 1295
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

So do steel alloys and forging/tempering/butting processes not influence the spokes performance?

Even if it's a very small influence, it sounds like you lean towards there being no influence. That is a very black and white approach. Isn't there more to it?

/a

C36
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

alcatraz wrote:So do steel alloys and forging/tempering/butting processes not influence the spokes performance?

Even if it's a very small influence, it sounds like you lean towards there being no influence. That is a very black and white approach. Isn't there more to it?

/a
Performance = stiffness or performance = durability?
The first, tour won’t really change stiffness with what you mentioned (butting, if you reduce section yes, the process itself, really minor in anisotropic properties changes).
The second , yes you have a hell lot mor variations on durability based on the process.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Heat treatment affect the fatigue properties of the spoke. It's dimension and length and the alloying elents determine stiffness.

There maybe a small effect of heat treatment on Young's modulus but it is small and inconsequential. The heat treatments aero spokes undergo after cold forging may differ but they are not going different enough to change the Young's modulus of the steel. Given spokes are made from the same stainless the physical properties are almost the same. The difference s come from the different dimensions of the spokes.

by Weenie


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