The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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MayhemSWE
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by MayhemSWE

WinterRider wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:47 am
Interesting.. what rim would you use? (Your buying rim not drilled?)
At this time my primary candidate are tubeless rims from FSE. Not sure if they actually sell loose rims as none are listed on the website, but at least Fair Wheel Bikes does.

by Weenie


Marin
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by Marin

Don't do it, tubeless tape weighs almost nothing and works really well.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I would not bother with sealed rims either.

Winter rider. More crazy ideas. You won't be able to relabily seal a single wall rim. Single wall rims are pony too and lack radial and lateral stiffness mean high spoke counts. There is a reason why you find them on cheap 26" wheeled atb's and cheap Dutch bikes and nowt else.

Why do you always try to reinvent the wheel.

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:17 pm
Why do you always try to reinvent the wheel.
Why not.. what does it matter anyway? Does amaze me at times how the many jump to some simple conclusion W/O thinking.

Consider .. the air volume added to the ride.. is that not what the "wide" rim is about? The whole of the cavity of the rim is air ... would that not improve ride Q?

Yes the old style SW's weren't much for strength... that goes back decades. Yet the SW's I've used .. the two I've laced of recent go above 500 grs.. about the same as the plastic rims of today costing near 4 figures. These new SW's are not the rim the double wall Kinlin is.. but well above the stiffness of the old SW's. Plenty of rim for the majority of riders.

Sealing the spoke heads.. not an issue. Lots of ways.. also locks nips from moving.

My rationale for running this 'speriment was ride quality... added volume of air. Any ride quality improvement ?... and how to quantify it sans subjectivity. Have not run one yet... will though.

The SW rim is like the Kinlin rim in one respect ... not enough gravy for the assembler to charge back. Has no commercial value to those building. A company like Kinlin .. could .. run off a SW design that'd be comparable strength to DW's .. not rocket science yet will never happen.

Thinking outside of the box .. getting away from the noise and chatter of the crowd .. one learns. I enjoy experimentation... I enjoy my bikes. I do not think that is the case w the many.

pushstart
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by pushstart

Can you explain the physics here? It is not clear to me how increasing volume where it is not part of the [elastic] tire would have any bearing on the performance or feel of the tire. I would assume that is simply pressure and width.

But, I also recognize that physics is complex for these things and would be happy to learn how increasing the volume without changing contact patch or pressure would affect tire performance.

romanmoser
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by romanmoser

Marin wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:02 pm
Don't do it, tubeless tape weighs almost nothing and works really well.
Marin why that change of opinion ?
You wrote yesterday this on the open molds thread : '' Quote
Yes, I have a set of 50x23s without holes. I've been running them for thousands of kilometers now, without rim tape.

You running tubular with this rims or what ?
I was interested in ordering rims also without spokes holes
So can you elaborate ?

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

pushstart wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:00 pm
Can you explain the physics here? It is not clear to me how increasing volume where it is not part of the [elastic] tire would have any bearing on the performance or feel of the tire. I would assume that is simply pressure and width.

But, I also recognize that physics is complex for these things and would be happy to learn how increasing the volume without changing contact patch or pressure would affect tire performance.
I tend to agree with your apparent skepticism .. but the wide rim thing .. is based on ride quality.. which I assume goes to air volume. I will say.. my 22T Kinlin's at 24mm wide do ride softer than the Kinlin 18mm 200's... yet the 22's have 32mm NON tubeless Ultra ll's run tubeless. Those roll about the same as the S Pro Ones 25's on the 200's. Pump the 32's up... more road feedbacks.

Takes about 2x + cycles to inflate the 32 vs the S Pro One with the floor pump. Bigger air cushion also can roll out well... near the Pro One's rate.

pushstart
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by pushstart

Well, sure, wider tires roll faster due to contact patch shape -- and possibly psi (depending on road surface, etc.). And bigger tires are larger volume. But increasing volume without changing the shape or psi of your tire doesn't sound like it'll make any difference at all. (I though maybe you had a some scientific basis for this hypothesis.)

I think a better project would just be to build a really wide tubeless rim to maximize width of your tires. It just buy larger tires. The 44mm Compass Snoqualmie Pass Extralight tires run tubeless are pretty much the superlative wide, supple tire experience. Or 700x38mm Barlow Pass for a little snappier handling.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

The extra volume in a single walled rim should improve comfort but single walled rims are not very nice to build with. sealing the spoke holes will possible will not be done by tubeless tape alone as there will be too many paths for air to escape. I just dont thing the what you hope to gain is worth the downsides.

I have yet to find a single walled rim that is nice to build with.

pushstart
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by pushstart

Yeah, I tried to convert a single-walled rim to tubeless with Stans tape and it did not work at all. Maybe if you start with a thicker tape ... and many layers. This doesn't sound nice.

I still don't understand the value that the extra air volume is providing inside the rim, though. Can you explain how that helps here? Maybe I'm being thick.

Noctiluxx
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Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

Please recommend me a great all around wheel in the 35-45mm range. My current wheels are Bora Ultra 50 clinchers on my Oltre XR4 and De Rosa SK. My TCR has the ultra lightweight DT Swiss Spline 28mm Mon Chaseral clinchers. The DT's are great wheels but uber narrow and fragile looking. I plan on relegating them to special climbing occasions. I ride 150-200 miles per week and looking for an all around carbon clincher under $2K. Wheels I've looked are DT Swiss PRC 1400 spline 35 ($1450), Zipp 303 firecrest 2018 ($1900), and Bora One 35's ($1650). Can I build a wheel under $2K better than these wheels?
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Red)
2016 Specialized Allez DSW Sprint (Gold)
2016 Giant Anthem Advanced SX (FS)
2018 Trek Farley EX 9.8 Fatty (FS)

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

yes building some "better" than those is pretty easy maybe not as light as the mon chasserals though.

As soon as I get the 282mm Cx-rays SP I need I will lace up a 26mm wide 45mm deep set with extralite hubs that will weigh 1300g. I'd say thats better. Braking is as good as the Bora's too

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:37 pm
The extra volume in a single walled rim should improve comfort but single walled rims are not very nice to build with. sealing the spoke holes will possible will not be done by tubeless tape alone as there will be too many paths for air to escape. I just dont thing the what you hope to gain is worth the downsides.

I have yet to find a single walled rim that is nice to build with.


Ah bm0p700f you spoiled building all those Kinlin's etc... yes they go together easily. Yes.. very nice to build with.

Not having issues here w building the few SW's done .. their heavier than the ones from yesteryear .. 500+ range grams. Rim tape .. why w SW's? Paint the nip area or caulk it.. sealed... done. No tape... there's other routes too.

The SW has some potential .. never to be realized. Not enough margin for the reseller .. public perception of the product .. the 'herd' has been sold plastic and that is the immediate future for the check writers.

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

pushstart wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:42 pm
Yeah, I tried to convert a single-walled rim to tubeless with Stans tape and it did not work at all. Maybe if you start with a thicker tape ... and many layers. This doesn't sound nice.

I still don't understand the value that the extra air volume is providing inside the rim, though. Can you explain how that helps here? Maybe I'm being thick.
Hey .. 'thick' works. :smartass:

Take your tubeless in 25, 28 and 32mm width's.. inflate to SAME psi.. which one rides the softest.. 32 hands down. I have done this... the 32 even rolls as well all in SAME model tire. So I want to run 25's... give me more air volume.. go SW and put that space to work as the shock absorber.

One of the posters back when made some salient points wider vs narrow rims... think the gist of it was 'not always the advantage wider'. I say .. where is the black and white data? Easy to mount a device to measure feedback into the bike for the tech savvy.. don't see that done. IMO wide rims .. plastic rims .. heavier and just another route to shake the coins free.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

my carbon rimmed wheels are the most comforbale of the lot comapred to all the other sets I have. so generalisations are the problem winter rider. some carbon rims can give a harsh ride, other wont it all in the layup.

by Weenie


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