The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
Svetty
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:06 pm
Location: Yorkshire - God's Own Country

by Svetty

andydarcy wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:51 pm
Hi Guys
After months of saving up i got a set of Carbon TI Road Hubs,
oh great I thougth - ive done the research looked high and low even check on here for information.
the set up i want is
H + Sons Archtype rims with sapim cx ray spokes.
I do have the front rim already and i got the sapim spoke nipples as well these are the 14mm versions
my weight is a 90 - 92 kg depending on the usual
my riding is mostly in Yorkshire so a lot of asending and desending cracking :)..
Today ive sent out 3 emails to various wheel building guys and got a mixed bag of info back
1 said to use a different rim - as the H + would not last long or the wheel would "fall apart"
1 said - "pass" and said to look on the Carbon TI web site for the spoke length ( a cop out)
1 said to wait for the new versions with more spkoke counts ie 28r - 24f.

maybe my internet research went wrong somewhere, i hope not as i wanted a nice super light pair of wheels that i could ride from March to September then leave to the next year..
if not
I have a brand new pair of Carbon TI Red hubs for sale.. and a brand new Extralite front hub up for sale..
regards
Andy
At your weight 24/28 F/R is probably OK with those hubs/spokes/rims but I'd not go any lower.
I'd build radial front and 2x both sides rear.
Ideally you need to lose a few kgs tho 😀

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WinterRider
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:52 pm
Yes Marin tension asuch as the rim or nipple can handle. You can stop at 1300n though. More tension may damage the nipple and that means failure.

Spokes should not loose tension in service. They can if the wheel is not properly stressed when building i.e stressing the spokes sufficient my that they are loaded way more that you can manage from pedalling or breaking. If that is not done then the spoke will need on when you ride meaning the wheel will go out and the tension will drop.
130 DS gives 53+ kgf NDS w a 42% tension ratio (average 11 speed width build ratio) .. are you fixing the left spokes to stay put?

53 even w Lasers heads out left is going to shake loose. Spoke preps only make the Laser types wind up more.

Check to good stress relieving... yet a wheel 'settled in' at 53 still means issues rough roads w no spoke 'fixing'.

Hence.. the triplet<< :thumbup:

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I only use spoke freeze with alloy nipple to stop them corroding. With brass I use rock n roll nipple cream as this stops wind up.

I use hubs that give that sort of tension balance all time and rattling loose is not the problem.

Triplet is not to stop spoke loosenkng. If your doing it for that your using it for the wrong reason. Triplet allows hubs with a 50mm nds flange to centre spacing and therefore a much improved lateral stiffness without absurdly low nds tension. Specially still rims are needed though. Otherwise s normal hub builds s better wheel.

I can build a wheel without thread lock and normal 11 speed spacing and everything stays as it is. I have a few sets like that with nothing but oil on the treads.

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WinterRider
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:58 pm
I only use spoke freeze with alloy nipple to stop them corroding. With brass I use rock n roll nipple cream as this stops wind up.

I use hubs that give that sort of tension balance all time and rattling loose is not the problem.

Triplet is not to stop spoke loosenkng. If your doing it for that your using it for the wrong reason. Triplet allows hubs with a 50mm nds flange to centre spacing and therefore a much improved lateral stiffness without absurdly low nds tension. Specially still rims are needed though. Otherwise s normal hub builds s better wheel.

I can build a wheel without thread lock and normal 11 speed spacing and everything stays as it is. I have a few sets like that with nothing but oil on the treads.
We'll agree to disagree per triplet tensions.. allows nice balance side to side w spokes that are less likely to shake loose.

"nothing but oil on the treads".. be interested in running kgf figure.. IE: tire mounted.

I will and do fix a few left side rear combo's... reason: goober so often does not use a tire pressure gauge. Point in case: repaired a 32H rear --rider only 170's.. so many loose and off tensioned spokes I just dropped the tension and started over. Pt: never seen a 26" tire carrying that kind of pressure.. SW rim too. Nice guy... I painted the psi figure ON the tires after finishing.. couple times I rehashed the importance of psi levels.

So for the goobers.. I 'fix' some of the lefts. :wink:

woogie11
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:19 am

by woogie11

Hey guys. I'm probably going to put together a nice rim-brake wheel set. Would this be a good idea:

.Rims: ENVE 3.4

.Hubs: Carbon ti

.Spokes:
.Front: Sapim CX ray
.Rear drive side: CX ray Sprint
.Non drive: CX Ray

My rider weight is 170 pounds. The only thing I'm not positive on is using the Sprint spokes on the drive side. I'm 6'4, so I'm pretty lean, I'm not exactly putting out gigawatts, so am more concerned about building "too stiff" of a wheel. I would really appreciate any opinions. Thanks very much.

Marin
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by Marin

Spoke numbers?

I'd say a wheel can't really be too stiff, only too heavy.

pushstart
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Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am

by pushstart

Yeah, I wouldn't think too stiff would be the problem here -- just unnecessary weight.

Depending on number of spokes, I'd probably just use CX Ray all around. (I weigh 175-180lbs and use 24/24 Sapim Laser spokes on 46mm [21mm internal width] disc-brake wheels and they feel great.)

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

stiffer wheels are better longer lived wheels. why exactly would you not want that?

winter rider - examine the physics of wheels and you'll find my logic and reasoning correct about triplet lacing. Otherwise, how would my 24 spoke pacenti Forza rear wheel with a hub that has 16mm/49mm flange spacing (1:1) lacing hold together. A tubeless tyre is mounted on that to further reduce tensions (I think there is less than no more than 300N on the NDS). I'm no flyweight either.

Load is measured in Newtons not Kgf, that is the internationally recognised SI units and for good reason.

how does this wheel or any other stay together, well that simple. It is laterally and radially stiff enough that spokes do not lose tension when the wheel is loaded. That is the key to a long-lived wheel (and even spoke tensions so they all fatigue at the same rate).

woogie11
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:19 am

by woogie11

Thanks for the responses everyone, I really appreciate it. RE spoke size, I am gonna sit down and figure that out. I just wanted to make sure my component selection and spoke idea worked before I did.

Re "too stiff" I know that's very subjective. I was thinking extremes IE: first gen I9 road wheels with aluminium spokes etc, those things were brutal ;)

Thanks again.

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ALAN Carbon+
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Location: Canberra, Australia

by ALAN Carbon+

I am contemplating having a go at building my first set of wheels. They will be for my CX bike (2017 Giant TCX SLR 1). Given that it will be my first attempt at building wheels, I am looking at using parts that are reasonably easy for me to get hold of and not expensive. Will most likely lace the wheels 28 spokes 3x. I would appreciate the feedback on the parts choice or any other suggestions.

Rims: DT Swiss R470DB
Hubs: Novatec D791/792
Spokes: DT Competition
Spokes DT Brass

Thanks in advance

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:28 am
winter rider - examine the physics of wheels and you'll find my logic and reasoning correct about triplet lacing. Otherwise, how would my 24 spoke pacenti Forza rear wheel with a hub that has 16mm/49mm flange spacing (1:1) lacing hold together. A tubeless tyre is mounted on that to further reduce tensions (I think there is less than no more than 300N on the NDS). I'm no flyweight either.

Load is measured in Newtons not Kgf, that is the internationally recognised SI units and for good reason.

how does this wheel or any other stay together, well that simple. It is laterally and radially stiff enough that spokes do not lose tension when the wheel is loaded. That is the key to a long-lived wheel (and even spoke tensions so they all fatigue at the same rate).
From memory .. Newton's is just the long version of kgf.. 10x stated. So 1200 kgf is around 12000 Newton's... very close to that. Good pt though... but usually we read tensions rated to kgf.

I'll check to your wheel building ability .. never doubted what you stated per low left tensions holding. Stated using oil on the threads I think you noted... I assumed something like a linseed type that sets sticky and prevents nip loosening.

Check also.. to uniformity of spoke tensions .. round and balanced means trouble free service. Understand in the world of flippin' used rides one corrects wheels that are like women from multiple dee-vorces... lots of issues and memories. At times decent round and reasonable balance are best outcomes .. then one has to remind Goober and Gooberette to NOT inflate the frickin' rubber to 1000 psi. :D High psi of course means low spoke tensions.. the things can shake loose... if not fixed. Hence I went to weak glue left... taking some cheep insurance not to see the wheel again.. at least for loose spokes.

We weigh same-ish... dunno if you hammer your wheels hard .. I can not now. Nerve issue left calf.. no more pure enjoyment attaching the inclines. Sucks. Triplet's work for me... little I view the Tour de Pharmacy replays I see the drones riding G3's. Same 2-1 concept.. doubt few harder on wheels that pro's. It's a 9.67 chore to educate the drone ---> those thicker in the mid section.. the rationale for the triplet. Hence I do not bother.. got to save time to ride. :thumbup:

But do-little-of-nothing left spokes.. not in my world. Low 40's and below for tension balance is just ridiculous.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I will admit on that pacenti wheel there is some thread lock but this is an extreme case. The wheel is laterally stiff though and when placed on the nds rear end cap you can heave down on the rim and the NDS spokes don't loose tension. that is a good sign that the wheel will remain stable and spokes outlive the rim. The oil on the threads only is something I used to do but only with brass nipples. rock n roll nipple cream is now used as it stops wind up which you get with oil only. with alloy nipples i use sapim nipple freeze but thats to stop corrosion rather than keep the nipples still. I have no idea if I am hard on wheels or not. I just don't break any but neither do I rock my bike much. Even when pushing silly watts on a hill I am seated and the bike is vertical. I push out more power that way.

Those wheels you mention with alloy spokes may not be that stiff. you are confusing stiffness with the ability of the wheel to absorb road buzz. the two things are different. aluminum spokes are not that stiff (aluminum has a lower Youngs modulus than steel) but is bad at attenuating buzz compared to steel due to its hysteresis curve.

for CX go tubeless and for that reason alone i would not use the DT swiss rims. the lack of the bump next to well on most (if not all) DT rim models means the tyres can unseat or burp. pick a rim like the kinlin, pacenti, mavic ust that keep the tyre seated firmly at zero pressure to make burping hard to achieve. If you are still using tubes for CX then you might as well stick to canti's and race retro stylie.

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WinterRider
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

I'm looking for data to figure G3 lacing for a rear .. 14-7's. Anyone have the formula/recipe for figuring spoke lengths for the DS?

From memory.. those are 2x I believe w the spacing for the 3 grouping around 1.5" (?--3" width for the triad) between the holes. 28H rims w ERD of 577 range go ~2.5" between holes for 28H. So the DS spokes are going another 3.5" around the diameter to find the hole. (?).

Nothing online for G3 spoke lengths I could find.

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MayhemSWE
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:44 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

by MayhemSWE

Any tricks of the trade to share when it comes to building with rims where the spoke holes are not drilled through the rim bed? For one of my next builds I am considering using such tubeless rims so that they can be used without tape. While it'll probably be a while until I get around to it I'd rather be prepared and source tools early!

Campagnolo have nipple inserts that can be guided through the rim by a magnet. Any of those compatible with standard nipples are do they use proprietary nipples for all their wheels? WH-020 for Eurus/Shamal, WH-035 for Zonda or WH-160 for Bullet

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

MayhemSWE wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:38 am
Any tricks of the trade to share when it comes to building with rims where the spoke holes are not drilled through the rim bed? For one of my next builds I am considering using such tubeless rims so that they can be used without tape. While it'll probably be a while until I get around to it I'd rather be prepared and source tools early!

Campagnolo have nipple inserts that can be guided through the rim by a magnet. Any of those compatible with standard nipples are do they use proprietary nipples for all their wheels? WH-020 for Eurus/Shamal, WH-035 for Zonda or WH-160 for Bullet
Interesting.. what rim would you use? (Your buying rim not drilled?)

I'm considering building a single wall rear tubeless. Air volume.. for ride Q.

by Weenie


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