The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Panaracer r'air... me too :=)

Marin
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Only problem is they don't have removable valve cores, which means sucky extensions.

MNX1024
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:21 am

by MNX1024

Panaracer tubes seems pretty interesting. Think they'll work fine in a carbon clincher with its partial latex build?

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kavitator
Posts: 1150
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Slovenia---that forest land

by kavitator

Question about pulling spokes and their angle to axle.
Is there any difference in perfect 90degree compare to hub axle?
24 spokes with 2x
Hub with assimetric spoke holes offer shorter spokes but angle of pulling spokes is far from 90degree.
Will be that wheelset less responsive compare to wheelset with perfect 90degree pulling spoke?
Is it just on paper or it can feel in real world too
Thx

eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

I've built wheels with really poor pulling angles, using 1x on the DS and 2x on the NDS (for 28h hubs). I can feel a small difference, maybe, between that and the same wheels laced 3x on the DS. Same rim, hub, and make/models of spokes, just different lengths. But it's so small that it could well be in my head. Also I"m a 145lb (66kg) climber not a rider who makes big power. I do ride a lot of very steep climbs however and that's where I maybe feel a small difference if there is one.

That 1x/2x lacing is probably got less bracing angle than whatever it is that you're proposing. The 1x DS spokes eventually pulled through the hub flange so I don't recommend that. You need enough angle so the hub flange is reinforcing the hole in the direction the spokes pull. Especially the DS spokes as they see the highest tension.

Jobst gives the equations to calculate windup for your wheel build. Also the torque transmission from DS to NDS but modern hubs have a much larger diameter body between the flanges than hubs did in his day so I just assume zero loss there.

bm0p700f
in the industry
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

I do alot of 28 spoke wheels 2x I have tried them 3x and I cannot tell any difference if that helps.

owlbass
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:31 pm

by owlbass

Hi, I've read about 80% of this thread at it has been really helpful. I wanted to get some opinions on these two wheel builds

Option A: About 1300g
Alpha 340's 24/28
BHS SL71
BHS SL210
Sapim Lasers
14mm Alloy Nipples
Radial front, 2x DS and NDS

Option B: About 1400g
Pacenti SL23 20/24
BHS SL71
BHS UL190
Sapim Lasers
14mm Alloy Nipples
Radial front, 2x DS and NDS

I'm 125lbs, I like climbing out of the saddle, and the roads I ride on are descent. Also, I plan on going tubeless and this will be my everyday wheel set. My current wheel set is DT Swiss 1850's, I've never broken a spoke and after 7000mi they are still true.

What option would be stiffer? I'm concernd that the Alpha build with the Bhs hub might be a bit soft, because of the DS flange spacing. The pacenti seems to get great reviews but would 20/24 make the build not stiff enough? I know 16:8 is an option but because this is my first build I want to pick a standard lacing pattern. I would like to keep the bulld between 1300-1400g if it is possible. The Pacenti build is about $30 more but I don't think that matters. Also, what would the pros and cons be if I decided to go for the ul66 front hub?

Any thoughts? Thanks for the help and I apologize if this has all been covered before.
Owen

eric
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

The BHS hubs have fairly wide flange spacing, especially the NDS. I like the UL66 hubs. The flanges are not as wide but that makes the resulting front wheel's lateral stiffness more in line with the always less stiff rear. I lace them heads in 1x which does make them a little stiffer. It looks funny to some people. The spoke holes on these hubs are countersunk quite a bit. Lacing them heads out leaves the spoke elbows unsupported and they eventually break if laced radial. Lacing the SL71s heads in makes for a very wide hub which may contact some forks at the spoke elbows. The UL66 has four tiny bearings while the SL71 has two larger bearings. I've yet to have any go bad so I can't say how they are to replace. More bearings theoretically has more drag but it's not noticeable.

The SL23s will make a laterally stiffer wheel with everything else equal. I don't know if more spokes will have more effect on stiffness than the stiffer rim. I'd personally go with the stiffer rims and fewer spokes but that is based on my experience with other super light clincher rims which had the stiffness of wet noodles.

owlbass
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:31 pm

by owlbass

eric wrote:The BHS hubs have fairly wide flange spacing, especially the NDS. I like the UL66 hubs. The flanges are not as wide but that makes the resulting front wheel's lateral stiffness more in line with the always less stiff rear. I lace them heads in 1x which does make them a little stiffer. It looks funny to some people. The spoke holes on these hubs are countersunk quite a bit. Lacing them heads out leaves the spoke elbows unsupported and they eventually break if laced radial. Lacing the SL71s heads in makes for a very wide hub which may contact some forks at the spoke elbows. The UL66 has four tiny bearings while the SL71 has two larger bearings. I've yet to have any go bad so I can't say how they are to replace. More bearings theoretically has more drag but it's not noticeable.

The SL23s will make a laterally stiffer wheel with everything else equal. I don't know if more spokes will have more effect on stiffness than the stiffer rim. I'd personally go with the stiffer rims and fewer spokes but that is based on my experience with other super light clincher rims which had the stiffness of wet noodles.


Thanks for the reply. Would you advise against the ul66 laced to the sl23, heads in, with 20 spokes? How many spokes and what rim have you laced the ul66 to?

eric
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
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by eric

Most of my Ul66 wheels have been laced to XR270s, all 20h. I've laced them radial heads out, heads in and 1x heads in.
I can't tell a difference between heads in radial and 1x as far as stiffness is concerned.

HillRPete
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Location: Pedal Square

by HillRPete

Want to build a proper (though mid 90s youngtimer) steel MTB again, after quite a few years. Since I mostly only ride MTB alone and for fun and diversion (offroad hill repeats and such), I'm fine with a fully rigid bike.

28h hubs and rims (Velocity A23) are sorted already, now my question is, would using Ti spokes give me an even more supple ride? Pattern will be either 2x or 3x all around. I don't care for stiffness really and prefer some suppleness in the right places, hence will be using a steel frame with non-oversized handlebars and supple tyres. The wheels should not require constant truing, though.

It's going to be a Steel+Ti themed build, so unless you recommend against Ti spokes, I'd be quite tempted.

pushstart
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am

by pushstart

That seems lime an awfully narrow rim for MTB, assuming by "supple" tires you will be running 2.2"+. I feel like my Stans Arch rims are on the narrow side for the big 2.3" tires I have on my steel MTB now; am tempted to build a Stans Flow wheelset or maybe one of these wide carbon rims. Of course in practice the width probably matters a lot less than I am attributing.

I can't comment from experience on the ti spokes. I would guess that you will not be able to tell the difference, certainly not more than dropping a couple psi in your tires. I have never been tempted to build with ti spokes, but am curious what those with experience have to say.

HillRPete
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Location: Pedal Square

by HillRPete

People might show me the door, but I really like the higher end Kenda tyres. Karma DTC, and now will try Turnbull Canyon and maybe Slant Six (all in 650b, 2.0 - 2.1" but good volume). Again I don't compare myself with others on the MTB and ride for diversion from the road only. The wheels will run on a 650b converted 90s Stumpjumper, if you must know.

But the question was really about Ti spokes.

pushstart
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am

by pushstart

What gauge spokes were you going to use? That would have significant bearing on the stiffness. I cannot fathom comfort being a significant difference between ti and steel when you ate talking about 3x lacing and 2.0"+ tires. I could see maybe lateral stiffness or increased maintenance (going out of true).

Maybe someone with more experience will chime in, though. OTOH, there is probably a reason why few people build with ti spokes.

pushstart
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 am

by pushstart

What gauge spokes were you going to use? That would have significant bearing on the stiffness. I cannot fathom comfort being a significant difference between ti and steel when you are talking about 3x lacing and 2.0"+ tires. I could see maybe lateral stiffness or increased maintenance (going out of true).

Maybe someone with more experience will chime in, though. OTOH, there is probably a reason why few people build with ti spokes.

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