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Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:48 am
by WMW
My lacing method is to line up the hub relative to the rim, count over the number of crosses on the flange, insert spoke in hub and rim... continue till done.

Does it need to be more complicated?

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:28 pm
by manninen
Wheel
My joke ended up to be quite stiff MF, laterally almost as stiff as 32h front wheel.
DS 0x heads in DT revolution, NDS 4X DT alpineIII

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:02 pm
by KLabs
manninen wrote:Wheel
My joke ended up to be quite stiff MF, laterally almost as stiff as 32h front wheel.
DS 0x heads in DT revolution, NDS 4X DT alpineIII

Hi manninen, is that a 40H hub/rim combination ... thanks KL :)

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:43 pm
by bm0p700f
36H saint hub. Still not sure what ox DS lacing is supposed to achieve. 3x or 4x both sides would have made a fine wheel.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:34 am
by KLabs
I would suggest that the 0x HeadsIn DS lacing is supposed to achieve maximum Bracing Angle (intended for lateral stiffness), but that is at the expense of Torque Control (Drive) which the NDS will need to control (aka Mavic Style) ...

thanks KL :)

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:15 am
by eric
I have built some 1x heads in DS wheels and even tried 2x heads in DS. The latter was beautifully stiff but the spokes hit the derailleur cage when climbing in the largest cog (but not on the workstand, go figure). Eliminating the cross would increase the derailleur clearance and not change the bracing angle much. The Saint hub has a large diameter shell so it won't twist, and 4x NDS transmits the torque.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:39 pm
by legs 11
I've done lots with radial heads in DS. I really like it as it builds into a fine and very stiff wheel.
DS flange strength can be an issue though, you need a hub with plenty of meat outside the spoke hole.
1X heads in is also a nice build, but you do need to select your spokes carefully so the cross is on the flat part of a bladed spoke or the rear mech clearance can be a pain.
I'm actually just measuring up to do the same build on a pair of LEW 45mm rims right now. :thumbup:

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:59 pm
by bm0p700f
36H saint hub on the rim he used will be quite stiff enough. 3x or 4x though so the gains here are vanishingly small, that's my point. On hubs it may be needed to get the bracing angle up but in that case use a different hub that has the bracing angles you want for the build. There is enough choice out there.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:42 am
by legs 11
Moving over spoke tension onto the NDS is what its all about, not just increasing the width.
I wouldn't agree with your comment that the differences would be very small.
In my experience the heads in pattern on the DS does make quite a bit of difference with the tension sharing between sides....and that can only be a good thing.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:08 am
by bm0p700f
Yes the spoke tension on the NDS is increased but not buy alot (I have done the sums) and the tension balance on these hubs is something like 55-60% if a 3x pattern is used both sides. An off centre rim would raise the balance even further if that is what is wanted.

so while the build done is interesting it does not make the wheel "better" just different. Plenty of other way to get a similar result without using radial lacing on the DS. I am just not a fan esecpially with 36H hubs as it is a risk for the hub cracking.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:46 am
by KLabs
Yes, 0x DS, poor NDS tension ratio (<60%, especially <50%) and high DS spoke tension requires a strong DS flange and rim (Mavic Style) :)

thanks KL :)

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:31 pm
by bm0p700f
I would not call 50% to 60% tension balance poor. I have found 45% is enough is the NDS bracing angle is high enough and there is a suitable spoke count and rim to complement the rider.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:01 pm
by KLabs
NDS ratio of 45% is very poor (only just working)! It is all relative, isn't it :)

thanks KL :)

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:12 pm
by bm0p700f
The thing is Miche hubs give this sort of tension balance and they work very well and build very reliable wheels. I have done hundreds.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:17 pm
by Calnago
KLabs wrote:NDS ratio of 45% is very poor (only just working)! It is all relative, isn't it :)

thanks KL :)


It depends... it is relative and depends on the components of a particular build. Using a Campy Record hub, 32 hole, for instance, laced 3x both sides (cuz that's how I like 'em) to a shallow rim, when properly tensioned yields a ratio of pretty much exactly that... ~45%. I've laced and checked enough of these to find that so long as you're close to max tension on the drive side, the NDS will be fine. Super strong, super stable. Tangential spoking. The perfect wheel.

You could do other patterns like maybe 2x on the non-drive side for example (higher tension, but less tangential), or use lighter gauge spokes on that side so they don't go slack as easily, but I like the look of 3x both sides on a standard wheel as well as the durability, feel and aesthetics of round DT comps or comparable Sapims.