The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
eric
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by eric

MNX1024 wrote:Aside from sheldon brown's wheelbuilding and parktools' wheel maintenance's article, what are some good read for wheelbuilding and maintenance?


Read Jobst Brandt's book. Nearly all your questions are answered there.
I don't think he talks about 2:1 lacing but I could be wrong.

by Weenie


almostweenie
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by almostweenie

WMW wrote:
almostweenie wrote:Couple questions.

1) Seems like your more fond of the xr200 than the xr19w. Mostly trying to go with the xr19w to have a slightly stiffer wheel so I could get away with a 20/24 build. Would you say that the xr19w build 20/24 would be durable enough for my application? Or would you still recommend going 20/28? If so I just cant use the gold tune hub I had my heart set on. Fairwheel doesnt carry the gold tune 170 in 28hole.


2) Also, sounds like you think Alchemy is a better bet over tune 170s. Is it just for my application? Care to expand on that? Would you go Elf/Orc Ul? I'm a bit hesitant about the Orc UL, if for no other reason its only been out a month. Also, I'm not sure I can get a industry price on the hubs.

3) Finally, part of the reason I'm trying to stay away from bladed spokes is because, its more of a pain to true them. Its a lot easier for my mechanics to true round spokes. Also, because im not a big guy who will be building a light build, ive heard problems about crosswinds using bladed spokes and really light bikes with light riders. Any thoughts on this?


I thought I was in the twilight zone because your thread disappeared, but now I see it got moved over here...

You'd want 28r. The XR19W might be slightly stiffer, but it's in the noise.

I like the Alchemys because they build stiffer wheels, and are a US company with great service. In the past it has been tough to deal with Tune.

CX-Rays are the easiest spokes to deal with because you can prevent twist. Just get a blade holder. You won't be thrown around by the wind... these are very slight spokes, not like the fat ones you see on some wheels.

Depending on what rim you use, veloplugs or two layers of Stan's tape will work well.



Thanks, you and others have sold me on the Alchemy hubs, I have contacted Alchemy and am probably going to go with an orc-ul/elf.

You have also conviced me to go bladed, im thinking DT aerolites, as I have a good source for them. Would they build up well with the orc-ul/elf?

Its not that I'm not sold on the Sl23s, I think your right about the durability, but its been a dream to have an ultra lite bike, there is no where else to cut weight so it has to be the wheelset. 450g is a lot compared to 386.

I think im just going to go for second best as far as duability goes, so lightness is my number one priority and durability is second so If you had to go with something lighter than the SL23s which one would it be? a23, xr200, xr19w, x340?
Could you rate them from first choice to last choice?

istigatrice
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by istigatrice

A23 is actually the same weight as the SL23, Velocity lied about the weight.

The ZTR-340 (from reports) would probably be the stiffest rim, but it has tire blow-out issues and is the most expensive of the lot

The XR19w is a tad wider than the XR-200 but is a bit heavier, just really depends on what you want to trade off. The ZTR-340 is the widest internally and is about the weight of the XR-200. If the tire blow-out issue was addressed I'd find it a pretty tempting rim, but I'm a bit concerned by that.

If you use the SL23, being a stiffer rim you'd be able to get away with using less spokes, which would give back you a few grams. I guess the real reason to get this would be for the wider rim, so if you're more concerned about weight it may not be for you

Have you looked into a cheap chinese clincher? I think the 38mm Farsports wheel comes in at under 1300g and would cost less than the build you're thinking of

My Choices would be:
1. XR19w
2. SL23
3. XR-200 or ZTR-340
4. A23
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

MNX1024
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by MNX1024

Finally decided on the hubs I want for my built and need some help determining spoke length.

Here are the hubs I'll be using:
SLF71W SuperLight Wide Front Hub
UL190 UltraLight Rear Hub

Now, I'm currently using the spoke length calculator provided on Sheldon Brown's website and here's what I did:

*using Pacenti SL23 rim in here
Image


May someone please confirm for me that I have entered all the data correctly?

If everything is correct, I should be getting spokes in the following length:
280MM for Front Wheel
286MM(NDS)/282MM or 280MM? (DS) for Rear Wheel

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MajorMantra
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by MajorMantra

Question about skinny spokes that tend to wind up, i.e. Revs and Lasers: I've been using 3in1 oil as suggested a while back in this thread to reduce wind-up. All well and good, but I'm concerned that in the long run this increases the chances of nipples seizing since 3in1 has little 'staying power'. Should I finish off builds with something else? Or try prepping with linseed oil or something?

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Zen Cyclery
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by Zen Cyclery

@MajorMantra- Linseed oil is a great option for spoke prep on builds. It won't necessarily reduce windup though. Windup is something that you must learn to accomodate for when tensioning by turning back the spokes slightly after adding tension.
With that said it's very difficult to get perfect. If you want to eliminate windup issues just run Cxrays and get an Alchemy spoke holder.

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MajorMantra
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by MajorMantra

I guess linseed oil will make future truing more difficult with skinny spokes though won't it? Or can it be dissolved with a thin lube if necessary?

eric
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by eric

CXrays wind up readily but unlike with round spokes you can see it. You could just put flags of tape on a round spoke and get the same effect.

Once you have an idea how much your spokes are winding up you can overshoot and turn back the same amount on each spoke and you'll be reasonably close. Good stress relieving will take care of any residual wind up. If you hear the spokes tinking when you ride the wheel the first time then you know that you did not stress relieve enough.

I am a sucker for well made tools so I bought a nice spring loaded spoke holder. The amount of windup with CXRays on the DS especially concerns me. Holding the spoke reduces the wind up to just the length of spoke between the nipple and holder and that is a lot less than the full spoke would wind up.

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MajorMantra
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by MajorMantra

I'm aware of the technique for building with these spokes, I'm just concerned about the best approach for future-proofing without compromising serviceability.

At one extreme you could use a locking compound, which would make future truing virtually impossible with Revs. At the other extreme you can use a very thin lube like 3in1, which is what I've been doing. My concern is that doing so increases the chances of seized nipples since 3in1 is so insubstantial.

wrcompositi
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by wrcompositi

I always use anti-seize compound to lubricate the nipples and threads. I pump some compound into nipples with a grease gun, the spokes will get amply lubed when nipples are screwed into.

eric
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by eric

I have been using Rock N Roll Nipple cream. It lets the nipples turn relatively easily when building but is a mild locking compound afterwards. I have also used grease in the past. And there isn't much difference between them really.

I have yet to have a nipple seize, even on my rain bike. I also grease the outside of the nipple where it contacts the rim.
If nipples seizing on the spokes is a problem for you, then I suggest grease or anti-seize.

The mild locking effect from linseed oil, nipple cream etc still allows for easy truing. Just don't use Loctite stud and bearing locker.

wrcompositi
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by wrcompositi

eric wrote:I have been using Rock N Roll Nipple cream. It lets the nipples turn relatively easily when building but is a mild locking compound afterwards. I have also used grease in the past. And there isn't much difference between them really.

I have yet to have a nipple seize, even on my rain bike. I also grease the outside of the nipple where it contacts the rim.
If nipples seizing on the spokes is a problem for you, then I suggest grease or anti-seize.

The mild locking effect from linseed oil, nipple cream etc still allows for easy truing. Just don't use Loctite stud and bearing locker.


Good to hear a reputable builder like Eric shares the same thought as mine! :P

Compared to dipping nipples into oil, it's more time consuming to put grease or anti-seize on every nipples but the effect is much better in the long run.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

No seized nipples here yet and I use 3n1 oil to lubricate spoke threads but then again a wheel should not need truing either. I do not use Rock n Roll nipple cream as I have not yet found the need. Once the need appears then I may change how I lube spoke threads but if no issues are caused why spend the extra time and money on something that is not a problem. Some times I think we worry over every last detail and some of those thing are nothing to worry about in the first place. I have built plenty of wheels this way with 10000+ miles on them and no issues so it not an issue.

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MajorMantra
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by MajorMantra

True enough.

I know wheels shouldn't need truing, but sometimes sh1t happens.

by Weenie


eric
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by eric

I have yet to have a rear wheel that didn't eventually need truing/tensioning. Factory build, hand built by reputable builders or by the LBS, and my own.

The range has been from only a few rides, to 3-4k miles before attention is required. The handbuilts from reputable builders and LBS have been all across the range. Factory wheels in the middle to longer end of the range. Mine cluster in the middle. I don't think I am better than reputable builders but I can spend more time.

I'm light and don't slam into obstacles. I climb a lot, stand on climbs often, and rock the bike when I stand. I think that's what makes me hard on wheels.

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