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Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:25 pm
by eric
Ah, I didn't see the Dati hub. It's got good DS spacing but not much NDS spacing. That means the tension is less unequal but the wheel is not so stiff. I have the same problem with an American Classic wheel I have. Even though it's 32h I can bounce the rim off the brake pads at will, and I don't weigh that much.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:57 am
by BobSantini
kavitator wrote:i have no problems with unwinded spokes...just looking for oppinions about soldering. I get wire and i dont know if it is worthy doing this :)

My opinion - don't bother with it. All it does is stop spokes flapping around if they break.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:57 am
by Weenie

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:37 pm
by kavitator
Thanks to stopping me from soldering :)

Bitex hubs (rear) RAF12 and sapim CX ray , 2x cross - will it need spoke washer on hub flange (under spoke head)?

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:04 am
by eric
If you're lacing radial heads out I'd consider it. Otherwise its not needed.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 am
by MajorMantra
I meant to say thanks a few pages back for the advice about replacing the failing alu nipples on my front Soul S3.0SL with brass. I've now rebuilt the wheel taking the weight from 629g to 640g including veloplugs - definitely worth it for the confidence that they will survive salty winter roads. It remains to be seen how long it will be before the rear goes the same way - I wonder if I ought to replace the nipples preemptively...

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:35 am
by rainerhq
Got the rebuilt wheel from LBS. Can´t test it right now, because it´s winter already :evil:

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:58 am
by istigatrice
I've got a question about nipple length:

For the H Plus Son Archytpe, would you use 14 or 12mm nipples? I was considering using 14mm as they look like they have a very sharp profile which may prevent the 12mm nipple from poking through properly. Suggestions?

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:41 pm
by Zen Cyclery
verycreativeusername wrote:I've got a question about nipple length:

For the H Plus Son Archytpe, would you use 14 or 12mm nipples? I was considering using 14mm as they look like they have a very sharp profile which may prevent the 12mm nipple from poking through properly. Suggestions?


I like building with the 14mm over the 12s, but for no real reason at all. I just like the look of them a bit more.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:50 am
by CaptainP
Just have a question about which hubs to choose. I'm building them on Kinlin XR200 24/28 rims with CX-ray and i weight 69kg / 150lbs.

I'm split between the Dati hubs and Tune Mig/Mag.

Dati set: 260g / 130€
Tune Mig/Mag set: 249g / 390€

Dati hubs cost roughly 1/3 of the Tune's and only weight 10g more, so is what more do you get with the Tune's for the 2/3 extra, other than the 10g?
Better bearings, smoother, stronger? Is it worth 260€?

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:14 am
by istigatrice
I've got a lacing pattern q:

16:8 (2:1) vs standard 24

I was wondering if there were any real advantages of this lacing pattern compared to a standard 24 pattern. I originally thought it may have been marketing BS but then I read Sheldon's ad/article about "Power Wheels" (yes, that could be marketing BS too). Now I'm not sure what to believe. Can anyone explain to me what the "theoretical" benefits are, and which ones are noticeable in the real world? Currently, the only benefit I can think of is equal tensions on both DS and NDS, but I don't see how that is a REAL benefit (if you lace radial on NDS on a standard 24)

Thanks

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:22 am
by bm0p700f
2:1 lacing is often used to even out the tension balance between the drive side and non drive side of the rear wheel. The idea is for light rims with low tension limits the NDs tension can be low enough to cause nipple unwinding (NDS) and premature spoke failure. Also low NDS tension means on rim with low radial stifness lumps and bumps in the road can cause NDS spookes to go slack. Also low NDS tension can result in NDS going slack during sprints and the therefore loss of wheel stifness and the rim bouncing of the pads. All of this will not do spaoke life any good.

The problem is made worth by hubs with poor flange spacings. Shimano 11 speed hubs will make all these issues even worse.

So if you use a rims that can take 1200-1300N DS side and even if you are using a campag compatible 11 speed hub the tension balance is sufficent on a 24 spoke rear wheel to build something relaible.

If you use a rim that can take only 1000N and then use BHS hub or some other with poor drive side flange spacing then that combination may require 2:1 lacing if the rider is not really light. Of course NDS spokes contribute alot to wheel stiffness given there high bracing angle. So reducing the number of these by half means loosing lateral wheel stiffness. Proably best to use a thicker guage spoke NDS for 2:1 lacing or use a stiff rim. rFlexy rms like the Alpha 340, XR-200, Aerohead e.t.c are proably not the best choice for 2:1 lacing patterns.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:33 am
by istigatrice
so basically a 2:1 lacing ratio is used to make up for a poor hub design or poor rim design?

Also, I read that you say the BHS hubs have a bad flange spacing, is this all of them or which ones are the ones with a bad Flange spacing? Could someone explain what a good flange spacing is and what a bad one is?

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:03 am
by bm0p700f
All Campag 11 speed hubs have poor drive side flange spacings. Some are a little better than others but all will give a tension balance of less than 50%. So I think you may have misinterpreted my post that 2:1 lacing is used of compemsate for bad rim or hub design. Rims with a low max tension are not a bad design neither are 11 speed hubs but they may require for some riders different lacing patterns to achieve a stable wheel.

I think the BHS hubs have a drive side flange spacing of 16.5mm, for miche hubs it is 17mm, for Novatec F482/F582 hubs it is 18mm, for campag record hubs it around 16.5mm again.

Tune hubs have a drive side flange spacing of 19mm. flange diameter also changes bracing angle slightly. Tune hubs though are not 11 speed compatible (Unless some one is going to correct me).

fulcrum use 2:1 lacing because there wheels are casmpag 11 speed compatible and it allows them to shave a little weight of there rims as the nipple bed does not have to be so thick as DS spoke tensions can be lower.

NDS spoke tension with 2:1 lacing can 90% of the DS so the wheel can be tensioned like the front.

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:19 am
by istigatrice
So basically a 2:1 allows for a lower DS tension and a higher NDS tension than a traditional 24 drilling? Which will allow NDS spokes to be tensioned high enough for a certain build?

Generally speaking, is a wider Flange spacing better? or have I mis-read again?

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:19 am
by Weenie

Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:44 am
by Mackers
Honestly, this has all been asked and answered before in this very thread.