The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

I'm building up a light gravel/all road/commuting wheelset to share between my Bombtrack Audax and Caadx. The audax is 12 TA both front and rear but the caadx is 12 TA front and 135 QR rear. I have thought about 350 hubs and just change endcaps on the rear as it seems to be the cheapest option.

I will be using 32-38mm tires so are wondering about internal width on the rims. All the tire and rim manufactorers recommend quite different widths. Would 22mm be a good compromise?

So far I have thought about the following:

DT 350 Hubs 28/28
DT RR 481 rims
DT Competition spokes
Polyax brass nipples

The build price including endcaps will be around that of a 1600 series DT wheelset but they are all sold out at the moment and I enjoy building the wheels myself.

Does it seem like a good combination? Or do you have other suggestions? I´m based in the EU.

by Weenie


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alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I guess it depends on how active you intend to ride with the 38C tires. When the tires balloon a bit too much and you try to corner fast with low tire pressure, things can start to happen.

Otherwise is sounds like a good plan to me (amateur). I'd probably go carbon rims though. Sure alloy is safer should you bottom out, (heavy rider/uneven terrain), but my experience is that alloy also deforms sooner or later and then the headache starts when you start to true it. I like the clear indication of carbon. "Oh it's cracked", then replace it. :)

BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

Thanks Alcatraz.

I plan to ride then somewhat aggresively, but I'm by no means a super powerful rider. 72 kg and have never damaged a wheelset. I have a 650B 32/32 wheelset for bikepacking. So the system weight for this set will never reach more than 90-100kg.

As for carbon that is out of my budget at the moment. 500eur is my max.

What is the minimum internal width for 32s? As they are the narrowest tires I plan to use.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Ok, makes sense. :thumbup:

The 32C won't be a problem. The rim has to be like ~26mm external to give you 22mm internal hooked. The proportion of 32/26 is quite standard.

It won't be aero but it's not a deep wheelset.

It's probably going to be fine. At 90-100kg you can't ride very low pressures even with a 38C so I guess you won't have much (if any) trouble with ballooning tire performance. (although I'm not an expert with that).

Can you get those components new for 500€? That's some nice quality stuff. Spokes and hubs should last many years. The rims, hmm. :D Some might argue that for your weight you need a beefier rear rim going offroad. If anything were to fail, it would likely be that.

BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

alcatraz wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:10 pm
Ok, makes sense. :thumbup:

The 32C won't be a problem. The rim has to be like ~26mm external to give you 22mm internal hooked. The proportion of 32/26 is quite standard.

It won't be aero but it's not a deep wheelset.

It's probably going to be fine. At 90-100kg you can't ride very low pressures even with a 38C so I guess you won't have much (if any) trouble with ballooning tire performance. (although I'm not an expert with that).

Can you get those components new for 500€? That's some nice quality stuff. Spokes and hubs should last many years. The rims, hmm. :D Some might argue that for your weight you need a beefier rear rim going offroad. If anything were to fail, it would likely be that.
Cheers. I can get it for 440 actually :D

Thanks for the insight. I'm so afraid of going to wide on the rims by accident :oops:
The rims are rated for 130kg so I thought that is considered quite sturdy?

I have tried looking for other options. Have any suggestions for less than 100eur pr rim?

There are the new Mavic A1022 but info on those is super scarce? :noidea: Otherwise DT makes the GR 531. They are heavier but they might be to wide?

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

You'll probably be fine with both rims. I'm just pointing out that the rear rim often gets beaten up quicker than the front. There's just more weight on it.

On a smooth road even shallow rims can be considered 130kg capable.

So some common sense is prudent. An RR481 is to a 65kg gravel rider closer to what a GR531 is for a 90kg rider, and so on.

At 485gr I think the RR485 is a good choice. As with any wheelset I just advise to mind the rims. That's all.

I have a 95kg friend that turned an alloy rear rim into trash real quick. He likes to just power through tricky places like train track crossings etc. The front is still fine.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Hey alcatraz, what are your thoughts on the asymmetric RR411 (rim brake) rims for rear wheel?

I notice some of Shimano's factory wheelsets, and DT's own complete wheelsets, aer running the assymetric rear and I figure there must be good reason for that.

(NB: Thinking the 18c will be an improvement over 17c rims. Only 1mm, but that might plump out tyres a little bit and still fit inside my frame)

BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

alcatraz wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:34 am
You'll probably be fine with both rims. I'm just pointing out that the rear rim often gets beaten up quicker than the front. There's just more weight on it.

On a smooth road even shallow rims can be considered 130kg capable.

So some common sense is prudent. An RR481 is to a 65kg gravel rider closer to what a GR531 is for a 90kg rider, and so on.

At 485gr I think the RR485 is a good choice. As with any wheelset I just advise to mind the rims. That's all.

I have a 95kg friend that turned an alloy rear rim into trash real quick. He likes to just power through tricky places like train track crossings etc. The front is still fine.
Thanks so much for all the advice :thumbup:

Found the tire pressure chart from DT and ended up going with the GR 531.

Looking very much forward to building them up and start shredding.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

robertbb wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:44 am
Hey alcatraz, what are your thoughts on the asymmetric RR411 (rim brake) rims for rear wheel?

I notice some of Shimano's factory wheelsets, and DT's own complete wheelsets, aer running the assymetric rear and I figure there must be good reason for that.

(NB: Thinking the 18c will be an improvement over 17c rims. Only 1mm, but that might plump out tyres a little bit and still fit inside my frame)
Here's my amateur assessment. :)

For 1:1 rear hubs with wide(ish) flange spacing, an asymmetric rim makes sense to me. It means you can "capture" the better bracing angles and balance the tensions at the same time. If your wheel has a 70/120kgf tension balance it will stand the test of time a lot better than a 50/120kgf wheel. It seems that over time tensions drop a bit. Maybe nipples set, etc. It means that 50kgf could quickly become too low. Specially on shallow alloy rims which fluctuate more than deeper carbon.

For disc brake wheels, the flanges are usually not spaced as wide so there's less need for it. Nor do I find it useful for triplet builds becase the side that benefits (being the ds side, at the cost of the nds side), already has more spokes. Even front disc brake wheels aren't dished enough to mess around with asymmetric rims.

So (to sum it up) I myself would only consider it for rim brake rear wheels that aren't triplets. For shallow alloy it makes more sense than deep carbon.

That rim in particular has the side edges curving inward which surprised me. Is it to protect the edges from damage perhaps? It will create a rougher transition between the tire and rim for air flow etc. Wide tires will "look" to balloon more.

From ordering rims these last few years, I noticed that nipple holes can be drilled off center. Without knowing the negative sides to that, it does make an interesting option to asymmetric rims. It means that if your rim is U-shaped or wide, you could have enough space to easily obtain a say ~2mm offset without having to choose from the smaller supply of asymmetric rims. Just an idea...

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

alcatraz wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:45 pm
robertbb wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:44 am
Hey alcatraz, what are your thoughts on the asymmetric RR411 (rim brake) rims for rear wheel?

I notice some of Shimano's factory wheelsets, and DT's own complete wheelsets, aer running the assymetric rear and I figure there must be good reason for that.

(NB: Thinking the 18c will be an improvement over 17c rims. Only 1mm, but that might plump out tyres a little bit and still fit inside my frame)
Here's my amateur assessment. :)

For 1:1 rear hubs with wide(ish) flange spacing, an asymmetric rim makes sense to me. It means you can "capture" the better bracing angles and balance the tensions at the same time. If your wheel has a 70/120kgf tension balance it will stand the test of time a lot better than a 50/120kgf wheel. It seems that over time tensions drop a bit. Maybe nipples set, etc. It means that 50kgf could quickly become too low. Specially on shallow alloy rims which fluctuate more than deeper carbon.

For disc brake wheels, the flanges are usually not spaced as wide so there's less need for it. Nor do I find it useful for triplet builds becase the side that benefits (being the ds side, at the cost of the nds side), already has more spokes. Even front disc brake wheels aren't dished enough to mess around with asymmetric rims.

So (to sum it up) I myself would only consider it for rim brake rear wheels that aren't triplets. For shallow alloy it makes more sense than deep carbon.

That rim in particular has the side edges curving inward which surprised me. Is it to protect the edges from damage perhaps? It will create a rougher transition between the tire and rim for air flow etc. Wide tires will "look" to balloon more.

From ordering rims these last few years, I noticed that nipple holes can be drilled off center. Without knowing the negative sides to that, it does make an interesting option to asymmetric rims. It means that if your rim is U-shaped or wide, you could have enough space to easily obtain a say ~2mm offset without having to choose from the smaller supply of asymmetric rims. Just an idea...
Thanks for the response!

What do you mean by side edges curving inward? I've seen pics but can't quite surmise what you mean... either way airflow isn't exactly a primary concern with such shallow rims.

I guess it's a lot of effort to replace the Zonda's (which are awesome) for a single mm of extra internal width. I wonder how much change that'll really make to tyre size anyway. Possibly not much.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Woops. Forgot to mention that I was looking at the disc brake version. It curves inward. The rim brake doesn't.

How come you're interested in more internal width? Are you riding very wide tires already?

deejayen
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:24 am

by deejayen

I'm thinking about having a go at building a pair of wheels. I'd appreciate some recommendations for components which will make the job as straightforward as possible. At the minute I'm just over 60kg and the bike currently has old Fulcrum Racing 7's. Rim brakes. I'd probably want to use 23mm or 25mm tyres (25mm max).

I was thinking about Shimano 105 hubs
Not sure about rims - possibly Kinlin XR22, but I think the rear is drilled 'funny' - is that going to make the job harder\complicated? Also, perhaps it's a bit too wide. Are there any other rims which might be more suitable?
Spokes - no idea - double butted? What gauge?
Nipples - brass?
Other parts - will I need spoke or nipple washers?

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

105 hubs are 32 holes. They are very durable. A heavy friend recently came back from a 4000km tour in 16 days and his rear 105 hub still spun like new. Those weren't all smooth roads either.

When round spokes get very thin at the thinnest tections like 1.5mm they wind up like crazy during tensioning. Round spokes down to about 1.8mm are friendlier but still not as easy as bladed spokes. Personally I'd rather get a taiwanese bladed spoke over a dt/sapim round spoke. It's more straightforward, but without the extra cost. At 32 spokes per wheel, and 60kg you can literally choose any spoke. Lighter/weaker spokes cost more though.

At your weight I wouldn't worry about nipple washers.

The rims are quite good I think. They're lighter than advertised I believe. 23-28c tires should work well.

For a first build it can be good to use nipples that don't obviously scratch. For aluminum nipples, silver colored ones. For brass I'm not quite sure, but in general they're all more durable. Aluminum ones are softer and are likely unwise for a first build.

A spoke key that holds the nipple around three corners is better for adjusting at high tensions.

A tensionometer is useful for ensuring tension balance and staying within min/max range. Listening to spokes only really works on radially laced spokes. As soon as they cross it gets hard to hear anything.

What are you looking at improving on these fulcrum wheels? They make fine wheels.

deejayen
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:24 am

by deejayen

Thanks, Alcatraz - I really appreciate all the detailed information!

I'm not really looking to improve on the Fulcrum wheels. It's just that I'm half-thinking about trying to build my own wheels, and thought a less exotic wheel might be a good place to start. I can always use them on one bike or another!

I tend to ride unusual bikes, including recumbents, fixies and Moultons, so a lot of my bikes have non-standard wheel requirements. I just thought it might be nice to be able to lace them up as needed rather than having to source components, contact a wheel builder, then send them the components to build into a wheel.

I'm not sure if I'd be successful, and I might never get around to buying all the tools and truing stand etc, but at the minute I'm tempted to start small and give it a go!

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Well, then building your own wheels sounds like a great idea. You can do all sizes and all spoke counts. Once you've done your first it's much easier to do the second, etc.

I've built more wheels for myself than I have time riding. That sort of thing can happen later :D, (and I'm not a pro builder.)

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



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