The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

Forum rules
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
liam7020
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:04 am

by liam7020

I'm trying to source a nipple driver long enough to use with 88mm rims. Cyclus do have an "extra long" driver in their catalogue but I can't find any dimensions for it. Anyone recoomend something suitable for 88mm rims? Cheers.
Tarmac SL6 & Campag Record EPS https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 0&t=153968

"Sometimes you don't need a plan. You just need big balls." Tom Boonen

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

bmp0 and Novemberdave here on the forum make a living building wheels. Send one of them a PM perhaps? I don't make enough to need to save every second so I don't have one to have any suggestions. Have you checked the chinese brands? Is it about finding the best tool at any cost or an affordable one?

penarth
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:27 pm

by penarth

If you can tolerate using an electric screwdriver rather than a manual "cranked" driver you can make your own pretty easily. Cut the handle off a suitably long screwdriver and shape the end to your preference using a file or a grinder. Or do the same with a length of mild steel bar from a hobby supplier.

Actually if you are not too ambitious with the length of the pin at the blade you can just use your newly shaped rod as a "twizzle stick" without the electric driver. Can make your fingers ache after 72 spokes though.

https://www.bicycleservicecentre.co.uk have some great tools and I believe Wheelfanatyk are now carrying some of them.

User avatar
kleggy
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 6:21 am
Location: Australia

by kleggy

Unsure of what Spoke to choose for my wheelset. 85kg Rider. Not an absolute powerhouse by any means, so probably doesn't really matter I'm guessing.

Front: 45mm Deep / 20H
Rear: 55mm Deep / 24H

Pillar 1420 Aero Blade
vs.
Sapim Cxray Aero Blade (+$40AUD)

Thoughts?

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Cx-ray/1420/cnspoke424 are all equivalent. A cx-ray is over twice the price of a cn424 where I live. A 1420 is ~10% more.

A single lightweight spoke like those breaks at nearly 300kg of tension so they are quite durable. A deeper carbon rim (like those you mentioned) built properly makes a wheelset that can last a long time.

The argument against them is that the thinner the spoke the more they flex when the wheels are torqued (accelerating, braking with disc brakes, climbing out of saddle) or when you corner at high speeds. This makes the wheelset feel a bit more unpredictable and unresponsive. Some hate it, some are fine with it.

Is it a rim brake wheelset?

Weight savings are mostly done in the rims and hubs, not so much in the spokes. Light hubs and rims still perform well (until they don't, failure). Light spokes don't perform like normal spokes even when new. Also the weight saving is very very small. Quite a lot smaller than what can be saved with hubs and rims, so it's a bad place to save weight. Light bladed spokes do look sexy. :)

Some hubs utilize the spokes more efficiently than others, and as such one wheel with cx-rays can perform a lot better than another wheel with cx-rays. It's a "sum of its parts" kind of thing.

User avatar
kleggy
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 6:21 am
Location: Australia

by kleggy

alcatraz wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:50 pm
Cx-ray/1420/cnspoke424 are all equivalent. A cx-ray is over twice the price of a cn424 where I live. A 1420 is ~10% more.

A single lightweight spoke like those breaks at nearly 300kg of tension so they are quite durable. A deeper carbon rim (like those you mentioned) built properly makes a wheelset that can last a long time.

The argument against them is that the thinner the spoke the more they flex when the wheels are torqued (accelerating, braking with disc brakes, climbing out of saddle) or when you corner at high speeds. This makes the wheelset feel a bit more unpredictable and unresponsive. Some hate it, some are fine with it.

Is it a rim brake wheelset?

Weight savings are mostly done in the rims and hubs, not so much in the spokes. Light hubs and rims still perform well (until they don't, failure). Light spokes don't perform like normal spokes even when new. Also the weight saving is very very small. Quite a lot smaller than what can be saved with hubs and rims, so it's a bad place to save weight. Light bladed spokes do look sexy. :)

Some hubs utilize the spokes more efficiently than others, and such one wheel with cx-rays can perform a lot better than another wheel with cx-rays. It's a "sum of its parts" kind of thing.
Yup, Rim Brake...

So CX-Ray wouldn't necessarily be worth the additional $40?

User avatar
kleggy
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 6:21 am
Location: Australia

by kleggy

Double Post....

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I don't think so. I've used them all.

The conversion tables for the tensionometers are almost identical between the three. If there were "magic steel" in one but not the others we would see excessive spoke failures and different numbers tensioning, but we aren't. I'm fairly convinced, but some might not be. :)

So to answer your question: It depends on the hub (and rim) which spoke is recommended. You have expressed that you're not a "daredevil" and with such rims have a wide choice of acceptable spokes. For the average (solid) wheelset some hubs would warrant thicker spokes, some can do with thinner.

User avatar
kleggy
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 6:21 am
Location: Australia

by kleggy

alcatraz wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:08 am
I don't think so. I've used them all.

The conversion tables for the tensionometers are almost identical between the three. If there were "magic steel" in one but not the others we would see excessive spoke failures and different numbers tensioning, but we aren't. I'm fairly convinced, but some might not be. :)

So to answer your question: It depends on the hub (and rim) which spoke is recommended. You have expressed that you're not a "daredevil" and with such rims have a wide choice of acceptable spokes. For the average (solid) wheelset some hubs would warrant thicker spokes, some can do with thinner.
I'm looking at getting this wheelset built up: https://www.tuffcycle.com/premium-45-55.html using the Tuff RD 5 Hub.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Do you mean TD 5?

I can't find any pictures of the TD5 rim brake hubs. Hmm..

The disc brake hubs look very similar to DT240EXP.

User avatar
kleggy
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 6:21 am
Location: Australia

by kleggy

alcatraz wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:25 am
Do you mean TD 5?

I can't find any pictures of the TD5 rim brake hubs. Hmm..

The disc brake hubs look very similar to DT240EXP.
TD5 looks like that's the Disc Specific Hub. The Website mentions RD5 as the option for the rim brake.

Image

TUFF RD5 HUB

Ratchet System 36T-HSCER Ceramic bearing

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Those are 18/21.

If you can accept the compromise of the thin spokes then go ahead with cxray/1420/cn424 (I call them 4gr spokes). The wheels wont fail but they won't compare to big brand wheels in performance. (cornering, acceleration)

One smart way of building is to use 4gr spokes in front, and 5gr in the rear. Those wheels can then satisfy more riders. (or 5/6gr) Using 4gr (rear) makes a wheel tailored to you specifically. An unwise decision some would say. The weight saving ~21gr.

liam7020
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:04 am

by liam7020

alcatraz wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:47 am
bmp0 and Novemberdave here on the forum make a living building wheels. Send one of them a PM perhaps? I don't make enough to need to save every second so I don't have one to have any suggestions. Have you checked the chinese brands? Is it about finding the best tool at any cost or an affordable one?
Thanks for your reply. Just to let you know I emailed Cyclus and they confirmed that their extra long nipple driver is 130mm in length so it should be fine for my 88mm rims. Cheers.
Tarmac SL6 & Campag Record EPS https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 0&t=153968

"Sometimes you don't need a plan. You just need big balls." Tom Boonen

joeeboh
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:50 am

by joeeboh

alcatraz wrote:Spokes are always tricky to reuse unless you're a busy builder. If your new rims have the same ERD (wheelbuilding diameter) you can reuse them all. Sometimes you can reuse some. A rim brake wheelset has up to three different lengths. Don't mix the spoke type on a flange.

You can try and find a lacing pattern that suits the length you have but in doing so you often compromise on the wheel. Personally I just measure them and tape them with the length and kind written on them.Then you can check before you order new spokes.

Spokes that have been used in wheels that have failed before are of questionable reliability. It's possible they are fatigued.

If the wheels you plan on disassembling have a value greater than the part you're trying to harvest, then it might be worth selling and getting another part new. Loose spokes and rims are generally not valuable 2nd hand. It's a situation you probably want to avoid, to collect 2nd hand rims and spokes.

Sounds like alloy rims are a good choice for you. They have more consistent braking performance in all kinds of conditions. I'm not good at recommending alloy rims. Popular for their value are Kinlin rims. They're available in 22, 26 and 30mm if memory serves. 24mm external width.

If you choose a shallower rim then the spokes musn't be low weight. You might get away with 4gr spokes on a 30mm rim, certainly for most front wheels ok, but for a rear wheel you need to take care and not go ultralight + shallow rim. The rear rim takes more of a beating even for casual riding and as such you'd best avoid 4gr spokes there. For the shallowest of rims like 22mm then even 5gr spokes could be the wheelset's weakest point. For 30mm 5gr is a better match.

2x:2x is the preferred lacing pattern for most 24h rear hubs, for professional wheels even. It is true you can gain a percentage point higher lateral stiffness with 0x:2x (radial nds, 2x ds) by shortening the NDS spokes but you effectively half the torque transmitting spokes which can lead to creaking if a stronger rider rides the wheels or if you try to muscle the bike out of saddle up a steep climb.
Thanks for the detailed response!

Do you recommend a truing stand to do the build? I will definitely be taking this to a shop to get it checked before the first ride regardless.


Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

It helps to speed things up.

A bicycle frame can be used too. Brake calipers can be used for lateral true, but for radial true you need a chopstick or something. To check dishing you can use two cups on a flat surface, rest the wheel on them and stack some coins to the axle.

The trick to longevity is:
Balanced tensions, above 50kgf or below 120kgf.
Proper nipple+spoke thread engagement.

To achieve that get a tensionometer and a flashlight. The flashlight is used to look inside the rim and see the spoke/thread engagement. If the spokes are too short, then better be careful.

Post Reply