The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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Singular
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

I'm thinking of a go-fast build on a set of old Royce Hubs (Ultra Light 20h front, Venus 24h rear) on deep-ish rims with CX-Ray. The rear will most likely be a 2x, but I'm on the fence regarding the lacing of the front (as radial is no option, due to Royce's recommendation). Is 1x even worth considering or am I better off just going with 2x?

by Weenie


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alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Around what year was that hub introduced?

What spoke tension do they allow for a crossed spoke build?

How many crosses do they recommend?

As you've hinted at, 1x 20h is still quite "radial". They might have something to say about 1x too perhaps.

I'm not used to building with older parts but, I believe a deep carbon rim is going to enable those restrictions to be eased up. Simply because the rim protects the flanges from the more extreme dynamic forces the hub would experience with a traditional shallow alloy/steel rim.

You don't need 100kgf spoke tension for that wheel to remain true. Extralite uses 70kgf, and I wouldn't be afraid personally to ride a front wheel with 50kgf (on a deeper carbon rim) as long as it's even among all spokes. That would also protect the flange if it were laced radially.

I just measured a basic chinese hub that's ok for 100kgf radial. It's got 3mm thick flanges (at the spoke holes) and almost 3mm of material radially at the spoke holes, out to the outer flange edge.

Gravel89
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:50 am

by Gravel89

alcatraz wrote:Any 5-6gr spokes. Sapim/DT/CNspoke/Pillar. They're all big brands.

D-light are 4-5gr.
Would a 32h rear Wheel with this kind of spokes over killed for my use? I found a good price for dt Swiss j bend 350 hubs but I am still unsure the spokes count. I will 100% with gr 531 rim

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

It's not overkill for backpacking. My 100kg friend is doing backpacking and preparing a new wheelset for a 4000km tour. He's doing a 32h front and rear but that's because he wants a super reliable wheelset. He's using a dynamo hub in front. 30mm wide carbon rims. 56mm deep. 32C Pirelli tires. This is on a rim brake bike. Can't have enough comfort when doing long distance. :)

It's only overkill when you take the bike for a ride around your home on paved roads. :)

Singular
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

alcatraz wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:15 am
Around what year was that hub introduced?

What spoke tension do they allow for a crossed spoke build?

How many crosses do they recommend?

As you've hinted at, 1x 20h is still quite "radial". They might have something to say about 1x too perhaps.

I'm not used to building with older parts but, I believe a deep carbon rim is going to enable those restrictions to be eased up. Simply because the rim protects the flanges from the more extreme dynamic forces the hub would experience with a traditional shallow alloy/steel rim.

You don't need 100kgf spoke tension for that wheel to remain true. Extralite uses 70kgf, and I wouldn't be afraid personally to ride a front wheel with 50kgf (on a deeper carbon rim) as long as it's even among all spokes. That would also protect the flange if it were laced radially.

I just measured a basic chinese hub that's ok for 100kgf radial. It's got 3mm thick flanges (at the spoke holes) and almost 3mm of material radially at the spoke holes, out to the outer flange edge.
My guess is that the Ultra Light and Venus (which are still the main hubs offered by Royce - time is moving slow in Hampshire) are at least 15-20 years old as a construction if not more. I mean, they use the old Campagnolo (9-speed) lockring standard, so...

I'm leaning towards 2x in the front too. I like my face too much to gamble on that.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Hehe. Yes.

If the flange starts to crack the wheel will go out of true first. You'll probably detect it with the brake rubbing.
Image

petermadach
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:32 pm

by petermadach

Hey Guys,

Recently finished lacing my first ever build, which I then gave to the local bike shop to get it centered, as I do not have a stand, and honestly, the patientce to do so. Don't wanna say anything bad about the guy, seemed like a decent bloke, but I have a feeling he hasn't done new wheels before, just fixer-uppers. I got the wheels back, but I had to give the front wheel back immediately as it was off center in the fork by about a cm. I brought home the back wheel, but it seems like NDS side is not tightened properly, there seems to be a lot more curve on the spokes, their heads aren't bed in fully in the flange and they seem to be less tense than the DS spokes. This flange is further from the centerline on this hub. Based on these pics, do you guys think the bloke did a decent job, and I'm just overly paranoid, or it's not supposed to look like this? Or is it possible I screwed up the spoke lengths? I use DT swiss rims and spokes, with Novatec hubs, used DT's calculator to get the spoke lengths.
I guess it's tough to call it based on these pics, it's hard to capture from a right angle... thanks in advance anyway.
IMG_20210426_172647.jpg
IMG_20210426_171504.jpg
IMG_20210426_172604.jpg
Here is what the calculator gave me, there was no 291mm on stock so I went with 290&292mm for both wheels.
spokes.png

jever98
Posts: 1175
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm
Location: Seattle

by jever98

petermadach wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:41 pm
Hey Guys,

Recently finished lacing my first ever build, which I then gave to the local bike shop to get it centered, as I do not have a stand, and honestly, the patientce to do so. Don't wanna say anything bad about the guy, seemed like a decent bloke, but I have a feeling he hasn't done new wheels before, just fixer-uppers. I got the wheels back, but I had to give the front wheel back immediately as it was off center in the fork by about a cm. I brought home the back wheel, but it seems like NDS side is not tightened properly, there seems to be a lot more curve on the spokes, their heads aren't bed in fully in the flange and they seem to be less tense than the DS spokes. This flange is further from the centerline on this hub. Based on these pics, do you guys think the bloke did a decent job, and I'm just overly paranoid, or it's not supposed to look like this? Or is it possible I screwed up the spoke lengths? I use DT swiss rims and spokes, with Novatec hubs, used DT's calculator to get the spoke lengths.
I guess it's tough to call it based on these pics, it's hard to capture from a right angle... thanks in advance anyway.
IMG_20210426_172647.jpg
IMG_20210426_171504.jpg
IMG_20210426_172604.jpg

Here is what the calculator gave me, there was no 291mm on stock so I went with 290&292mm for both wheels.
spokes.png
With the full caveat of just looking at pictures on the internet, I would definitely check these properly before going ahead and riding them: the top picture doesn't look great, one spoke is very straight, the other is very bent. This suggests to me that either one is very taught and the other very loose, or the wheel hasn't been destressed -- the bend should be similar on both. Image

The drive side spokes will always be less taught than the drive side spokes - otherwise the rim wouldn't be centered. It's because of the cassette necessitating the drive side spokes to be further inboard, so they need to be tighter to keep the rim centered. A good first check is to ping each spoke on the non-drive side and see if there are big differences in tone. Those would suggest uneven tension, which you want to avoid. Same on the drive side (though slightly less critical, as the tension is higher, so lower risk of spokes going slack).

What's tough to tell is whether the overall spoke tension is right (high enough).
----
No longer in the industry

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

It's not hard to check if the spoke lengths are allright. Just put a light over a hole in the rim bed and look down the neighboring hole to see how far the spoke has threaded into the nipple.

Round nds spokes (rear, non-triplet) sometimes look like that.

I tried to use a piano/guitar string tuning app on my phone to check tension balance, but I couldn't do crossed spokes. They sound the same even though they were off. In the end I bought a tensionometer in China for like 25usd. Squeezing spoke pairs could give you an indication that something is wrong, but it's not 100%. Compare the softest and the hardest feeling spoke pair on each side. They should be basically the same. Let's say you mount a tire, inflate it, and feel that the nds spokes feel very loose, then it's best to get it checked properly. If you're riding around with one ds spoke much tighter than the surrounding ds spokes, you're going to damage the rim. If you're riding around with one/few too loose nds spoke you're going to break a spoke after a while.

If the spoke lengths are right, and the nds spokes are even above 50kgf, and ds are below ~130kgf, then it's a reliable build.

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 5777
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

Royce hubs should be laced 2x.

bm0p700f
in the industry
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

alcatraz wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:01 am
It's not overkill for backpacking. My 100kg friend is doing backpacking and preparing a new wheelset for a 4000km tour. He's doing a 32h front and rear but that's because he wants a super reliable wheelset. He's using a dynamo hub in front. 30mm wide carbon rims. 56mm deep. 32C Pirelli tires. This is on a rim brake bike. Can't have enough comfort when doing long distance. :)

It's only overkill when you take the bike for a ride around your home on paved roads. :)
32mm tyre on 30mm wide rims.oh dear. There pushing the boundries and this. His build would be fine with a 40mm+ tyre. I would put a 50mm tyre on it.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

The 32C pirelli cinturato measures 32mm on this wide rim. It surprised me. I was expecting more.

After receiving the tires and testing the clearance on his domane it looks like he might be able to fit a 35C tire.

The clearance is so tight between the chainstays that we were afraid that even a 32C might rub but after checking it did leave about 4mm on each side.

He turned his front luggage pack to point into the wind instead of the traditional way. That's how much he cares about aero, hehe.

Just ordered pillar 1423 spokes, dsn brass nipples and veloplugs. In a week when they arrive I can finish the build. It's interesting in a way that it's a SON dynamo front disc brake hub and a rim brake rim, with the hub converted to QR. That way he can use that hub with any bike. I'm still lacing it ready for disc braking forces. It's going to look funny.

USAisDOA
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri May 21, 2021 3:39 pm

by USAisDOA

.[/quote]

32mm tyre on 30mm wide rims.oh dear. There pushing the boundries and this. His build would be fine with a 40mm+ tyre. I would put a 50mm tyre on it [/quote]

I'll see your 50 mm and raise you to 60 mm. :beerchug:

:wink: Forgot.. how's that for a first post.
I believe almost nothing I read and 'hear'

I believe roughly half of what I see with my own eyes.. in person.

I do not carbon.. anything


:nospamhere:

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

The chainstays are quite narrow near the bottom bracket, and the brake calipers could start to touch too.

You've obviously never seen an italian bike. They can't even fit 25c tires sometimes. :shock:

by Weenie


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USAisDOA
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri May 21, 2021 3:39 pm

by USAisDOA

alcatraz wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 1:26 am
The chainstays are quite narrow near the bottom bracket, and the brake calipers could start to touch too.

You've obviously never seen an italian bike. They can't even fit 25c tires sometimes. :shock:
I will guess the gentleman fitting a 50 in there probably uses a hacksaw. :noidea:

I've seen one of those frames of that flavor that would not take a 25. I showed one gent how to deflate the tire slide him in there and pump him up. Just fit.. I did a little judicious truing and stress relieving.. never heard from him again. Must have found some Joy
..
I believe almost nothing I read and 'hear'

I believe roughly half of what I see with my own eyes.. in person.

I do not carbon.. anything


:nospamhere:

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