The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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Emin
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:55 pm

by Emin

One question to spokes:

How big is the difference between a) and b) and what do you suggest to choose?

a)
Front left CX-Sprint
Front right CX-Ray
Back left CX-Ray
Back right CX-Sprint

b)
Front left CX-Ray
Front tight CX-Super
Back left CX-Super
Back right CX-Ray


Hubs with small flanges and 28 holes for graveling and driver with 74kg. Spoke length 300mm. Light rims - carbon with 300g.

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pdlpsher1
Posts: 4016
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

For 28 spokes there's no need to mix spoke types. Your wheels will be strong enough to go with all CX-Ray spokes. The two most important things to get it right are 1) asymmetrical lacing pattern (also known as Shimano lacing pattern) on the rear, and 2) 3x both front and rear. Here's a video on the asymmetrical lacing pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfWd7_avr1s Since your rims are very light and presumably very shallow, I don't think the weight savings from the CX-Super is worth it. So I wouldn't go with all CX-Super if I'm building these wheels for myself. An alternative option for you is 24 front and 28 rear with all CX-Ray.

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alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

The difference between A and B is 50gr for the complete wheelset.

Cx-super spokes cost a lot too.

The wheelset will be hard to sell. It will feel a bit spongy when braking.

Super spokes use different nipples than cx-ray. They have smaller threads.

Carbon spokes would maybe be better than super spokes. If you don't mind the premium and trouble finding them.

Emin
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:55 pm

by Emin

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:01 am
For 28 spokes there's no need to mix spoke types. Your wheels will be strong enough to go with all CX-Ray spokes. The two most important things to get it right are 1) asymmetrical lacing pattern (also known as Shimano lacing pattern) on the rear, and 2) 3x both front and rear. Here's a video on the asymmetrical lacing pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfWd7_avr1s Since your rims are very light and presumably very shallow, I don't think the weight savings from the CX-Super is worth it. So I wouldn't go with all CX-Super if I'm building these wheels for myself. An alternative option for you is 24 front and 28 rear with all CX-Ray.
I've read that mixing the spoke types makes the wheel stiffer and because of the light rim and a small flunge, bringing more stiffness into the wheel is preferable.

Three crossed straight pull spokes is on the list. However, I've to check your link and details about asymmetrical lacing patterns.
The hubs are already here, so 28/28 is fix. Switching to 24 in front is no option anymore.
alcatraz wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:50 am
The difference between A and B is 50gr for the complete wheelset.

Cx-super spokes cost a lot too.

The wheelset will be hard to sell. It will feel a bit spongy when braking.

Super spokes use different nipples than cx-ray. They have smaller threads.

Carbon spokes would maybe be better than super spokes. If you don't mind the premium and trouble finding them.
In the end, CX Super (not the Superspoke) isn't recommended here so far. I might stay to option A with the negative side of more weight but also maybe more stiffness as positive effect.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I can't find any specs of CX-Super. I know that the Superspoke isn't listed on sapim's homepage. Can you help me find some specs? Weights?

Having a flexy rim brake wheel is an inconvenience with some creaking under hard efforts and brake rub. But on a disc brake wheelset you're influencing your brake ability, and the forces going though the wheel when emergency braking are on a higher level, loading/unloading, accelerated fatigue etc. Take care when stressing a lightweight build.

mag
Posts: 616
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:23 pm

by mag

Finding information about the CX-Super spokes is quite difficult. There are few places with incomplete or even contradictory information. But usually it's something like:

- the CX-Super is 17% lighter than the CX-Ray and its strength is increased by 120N in the middle section versus that of the CX-Ray

Weight: (64 pcs x 260mm lg) 231g
Quality: Special stainless steel
Strength on middle section: 3040N/mm2 (other sources claim 1980 and I'd say it's closer to the reality)
Length: 145-310mm

The most conflicting information is on dimensions, but it appears to be mostly claimed around: 1,8 - 0,9 x 2,0 - 1,8 mm

https://www.starbike.com/en/sapim-super-cx/
https://tune.de/shop/en/167/sapim-cx-super-spoke
https://r2-bike.com/SAPIM-Spoke-CX-Super-black-260-mm


As for carbon spokes I konw there are at least 2 manutacturers. One is Taiwanese ACM and another one is somewhere in China (Strenbike ?). However I have no idea where to purchase them (in small quantities). If anyone can advise, go ahead.

Emin
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:55 pm

by Emin

In my case, I'm talking about disc wheels.

The CX-Super is a variation of the Superspoke, like the CX-Ray is a variation of the Laser.
A few days ago I found this - originally just in German language: https://superlight-bikeparts.de/Informa ... pim-Spokes

And from the perspective of price: the CX-Sprint isn't much cheaper than CX-Super. CX-Ray is even cheaper than CX-Sprint (here).

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Yesterday I saw a roval disc brake wheelset with 18 spokes in front and 24 in the rear, and both wheels are triplets. It seemed so odd that it makes this lightweight 28 spoke build seem normal.

It'll probably be fine even with the lighter "super" spokes. Personally I don't distinguish between cx-super or superspoke if they weigh the same. They should behave similarly.

What hubs do you intend to use? What's the riding weight? Do you ride recreationally or competitively? How deep/wide is the rim and how much does it weigh?
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pdlpsher1
Posts: 4016
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

mag wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:48 pm
Finding information about the CX-Super spokes is quite difficult. There are few places with incomplete or even contradictory information. But usually it's something like:

- the CX-Super is 17% lighter than the CX-Ray and its strength is increased by 120N in the middle section versus that of the CX-Ray

Weight: (64 pcs x 260mm lg) 231g
Quality: Special stainless steel
Strength on middle section: 3040N/mm2 (other sources claim 1980 and I'd say it's closer to the reality)
Length: 145-310mm
The increase in strength in the middle section is very misleading. Sapim uses strength per cross-section area (3040N/mm2). Since the CX-Super has a significantly smaller cross-section area than the CX-Ray it gives a higher strength per cross-section area figure. In reality the absolute strength of the CX-Super is way less than the CX-Ray. There's no magic nor free lunch in physics. The heavier spoke will always be stronger than the lighter spoke.

User avatar
pdlpsher1
Posts: 4016
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

Emin wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:59 am
Three crossed straight pull spokes is on the list. However, I've to check your link and details about asymmetrical lacing patterns.
The hubs are already here, so 28/28 is fix. Switching to 24 in front is no option anymore.
The asymmetrical lacing pattern for the rear hub only applies to hubs that take J-bend spokes. For a straight pull hub you can lace them however you like. I would go with symmetrical lacing both front and rear.

ultreia
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:31 pm

by ultreia

ultreia wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:20 pm
Just for your information, it worked out changing the spokes under... So this 1-2 mm of gain was the key! I would try to put some J-Bend bladed spokes instead of round spokes. So the idea now is to build this rear wheel with cnspokes aero424 or aero416... what do you think? I want cheap for the alloy.
Finally I solved the problem with a DT Swiss 350 straight pull. So now, I am looking for some similar cheap hub to use with these alloy rims to try to hub another alloy wheelset with the spokes and rims that I have now.

The hub I already have is RAR9. So I don´t know what could be the next one.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Superbudget hubs are Powerway R13. Other than needing a bearing change after like 5000km for my heavy friend, they've been fine.

I always get weird reactions when suggesting powerway but they're really not bad. They end up in the hands of lots of amateurs I think. Not the hubs fault... :)

ultreia
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:31 pm

by ultreia

I don´t think that they are bad but I am looking for some plenty room after the cassette to avoid spokes being touched by the shifter cage... I think that Novatec 482 could be a good one for this purpose... Powerway R13 is almost worst than Bitex for this... I mean, I would like to have less than 15.9 Flange distance, I would say 15.5 would be the best...

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Hehe. Never encountered anyone looking for less. That's a crucial distance for wheel performance.

Use bladed spokes and you should be ok.

ultreia
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:31 pm

by ultreia

alcatraz wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:14 pm
Hehe. Never encountered anyone looking for less. That's a crucial distance for wheel performance.

Use bladed spokes and you should be ok.
I used bladed spokes and it is not working also. DT Swiss straight pull 350 has 15.8 and DT 240 16. Bitex are all over 16.2. It looks not too much difference but it looks enough for not touching the spokes... I don´t know if maybe my Scott Addict frame is wrong or what... but fully sure that rear deraiulleur and frame hanger are ok and the cage is touching spokes on bitex hubs when I stand up and put some high watts.

by Weenie


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