The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
deejayen
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:24 am

by deejayen

Thanks for the encouragement!

by Weenie


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hendemic
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:52 pm

by hendemic

Pillar 1420 vs Wing 20

Hello. I'm a 155lb rider looking to build a set of CX specific disc wheels. If they prove strong enough they may get turned over for other duties. I have a pair of narrow (25mm external) 50mm deep carbon rim brake rims from Elite (AliExpress). They are 20/24hole. I've found a hubs to support this (d791/792sb) and it will be my 3rd build with the hubs - 5 wheelsets under my belt.

I've always used Pillar 1420. They are cheap, light and seem to hold me up after the wheels are built. I do the spoke calculations and then round up to the nearest even #. I've come to find though, the spokes tend to run long (or they stretch?) and I sometimes resort to adding washers or swapping in squorx/double-square nipples to allow for this.

I'm getting ready to order spokes for this 20/24 wheelset, and this time I'm planning on rounding DOWN, especially on the cassette and disc sides, to account for this stretch.

That has led me to take a closer look at the newer Pillar Wing 20 spokes. Only a slight increase in price and what appears to be a better spoke.

If I read these charts... do they indicate the Wing will stretch less at the 100kgf mark? It appears to have a higher breaking strength. Does anyone have expereince to share with me? I can't add the clip images... so here are the links:

https://www.pillarspoke.com/psr-x-tra
https://www.pillarspoke.com/wing

hendemic
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:52 pm

by hendemic

Edit: Duplicate post

User avatar
pdlpsher1
Posts: 4013
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

The left chart is confusing. It's really meant for calibration the tensiometer. The Wind 23 is a much stiffer spoke than the Wing 20 and it would show a different lateral bending reading on a tensiometer. That's what the left chart is meant for. The right chart shows the spoke stretch in mm in tension. At 120kgf and spoke will stretch roughly 1mm. Yes, I always round down by up to 2mm when calculating spoke length. So when the calculator says 271.9mm I will buy 270mm. If it's 272.2mm I will buy 272mm.

I've used the Wing 20 on two wheelsets. They are great but a bit difficult to get a hold of here in the U.S. There's one distributor in the U.S. I have bought from the U.S. distributor as well as a shop in China. Both are good but the Chinese shop is quite a bit cheaper.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Looking at the graphs Wing 20 does seem to stretch less at ~1.5mm @ 120kgf and break at 260kgf.

The 1420 stretch ~1.9mm @120kgf and break at 280kgf.

This is if these graphs can be trusted. All that I can confirm is that when building I do see a similar "stretch" at those tensions shown in the graph. Reducing high tension spoke lengths by 2mm (for light spokes) does seem to work. Sometimes I even reduce by 3mm as I think that the nipples settle into the rim, the rim compresses a little (if shallow) etc.

hendemic
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:52 pm

by hendemic

Thank you both for the discussion. And it's validating to know I've come to the conclusion similar to what you have mentioned - these thin spokes need to be ordered short. @alcatraz you went further in pointing out that it's really the short/tension spokes that will likely need this treatment. That's a great observation and one I wouldn't have thought of.

I think because this build is light on spokes, I'll try the Wing. Either way they're coming from AliExpress. CSC is the seller I've ordered from several times.

MUCH APPRECIATED!

User avatar
VTR1000SP2
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:21 pm

by VTR1000SP2

Posting this here to help out a local cyclist I know. For some context that may or may not apply, he sprints often and can hold 1400-1600W for a good few seconds with his max close to 2000W.

So I have custom built wheels by a very experienced guy at who did em up right. Disc brake wheels, straight pull spokes, 28 spokes rear, 24 spokes front.

-they were originally tensioned to a max of 110KGF, with threadlock. However after 100km I started getting spokes unthreading and nearly falling out.

-sent them back, wheelbuilder retensioned and stressed relieved them to a max of 120KGF. This seemed to temporarily cure the issue, and the wheels were flawless for 6,500km. Now, I'm getting the same unthreading and the tension balance on both wheels are all over the place.

So I'm trying to think of solutions. I know that the spoke tension relies on the friction created by the threading of the nipple and spoke under axial load. If the wheel is subject to repeated loads above the KGF tension, the spokes will cyclically hit a point of being under zero tension. That would mean that in that moment, the threading would have no friction, and would be free to rotate around. I'm assuming threadlock helps, but might not be a direct cure.

So I can imagine that an increase in the maximum KGF would increase tension, meaning that the spoke would be less likely to hit a point where they're not under tension. However, it's already at 120KGF, and going higher starts to risk destroying the carbon rim.

Next possible solution could be to make wheels that have more spokes, so the load is distributed across more of them, and the added stiffness to the wheel would keep the rim from deforming enough under load to loosen the spokes opposite of those under highest tension?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Focus Izalco Max - 4.84kg without pedals
Cervélo Áspero - 8.28kg
Trek Madone SLR Rim - 7.73kg
Standert Triebwerk Disc - 8.47kg

Marin
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Solution: Re-true every 5000k

User avatar
pdlpsher1
Posts: 4013
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

With everything else being equal, adding more spokes and using thicker spokes will drastically reduce the changes in tension. Additionally, using a 2:1 lacing pattern will help raise the tension on the NDS. 120kgf is the targeted tension, not the average tension. Half of the 28 spokes are going to be significantly below 120kgf unless you're using a 2:1 lacing pattern.

USAisDOA
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri May 21, 2021 3:39 pm

by USAisDOA

"were flawless for 6,500km"

The guy that built those wheels does excellent work..
needless to say. Imagine how many bumps and brake sessions etc take place in that amount of mileage. Rider habits and usage are the biggest factors in wheel staying true.
I believe almost nothing I read and 'hear'

I believe roughly half of what I see with my own eyes.. in person.

I do not carbon.. anything


:nospamhere:

CarlosFerreiro
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: Shetland, Scotland

by CarlosFerreiro

Looking for the benefit of some experience folks if you'd be so kind.

When i got my do it all disc brake bike I picked up a near new pair of "road" wheels for it.
Hope RS4 J bend
24 2x CXRays
Pacenti Forca rims

They didn't really give an issue, but always felt a little flexible. I broke one spoke in 2 years, ~5000km. I'm 85kg, FTP about 300W.
I ended up getting a pair of Hope 20Five 32 spoke CX rims, and feel a lot more confident in those.

Now I am considering rebuilding the 24 spoke RS4 hubs with Lightbicycle WR45 rims.
If I went for some heavier spokes, would you think those would hold up for me with the stiffer rim build?
Road use only, more solo/audaxy stuff but some moderate club rides, 32 or 35mm tyres most likely. Cannondale SuperX, so an AI offset helping a touch too. Any difference if I manage to drop to my intended 80kg weight?

Otherwise I'd sell the wheels complete and just stick with the 20Fives.
Thanks for any opinions

Marin
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

The wheels will be massively stiffer with the LB rims. Use thicker spokes front left and rear right and they will be bombproof.

DieselCondor
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:14 pm

by DieselCondor

Hello WW, I am looking for some rim choice advice on my upcoming new wheel build. I am a strong 98kg rider and I look after my kit. My spec so far:

32h Campagnolo record hubs (black ones)
Sapim Race in the rear
Sapim laser in the front
Alloy polyax nipples.

I am stuck over rim choice. I would like a sprightly wheelset and think a shallow rim would look best. I usually run clinchers and latex tubes although I am considering (maybe) tubeless in the future.

I am considering Kinlin XR22RT/T, mavic open pro ust 21 and as an out there choice- mavic open pro tubular. What do you think?
Also do you think black spokes and nipples or silver spokes and nipples?

Hopefully below is a pcture of my bike with its current archetype/hope build.

Regards, Den.
IMG_3217.jpeg

Multebear
Posts: 1395
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

I have this homebuild wheelset, with 240 hubs and R460 rims. The front rim is pretty worn. But I'm not sure, if it's time to replace it yet, or if I can get a couple of hundred km's out if it. The wet season is full on here in northern EU. So I guess I better be safe than sorry. But I can't seem to find out, how much wear this is. Is anyone familiar with wear on R460 rims?
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DieselCondor
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:14 pm

by DieselCondor

Multebear wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:31 pm
I have this homebuild wheelset, with 240 hubs and R460 rims. The front rim is pretty worn. But I'm not sure, if it's time to replace it yet, or if I can get a couple of hundred km's out if it. The wet season is full on here in northern EU. So I guess I better be safe than sorry. But I can't seem to find out, how much wear this is. Is anyone familiar with wear on R460 rims?
IMO That rim is toast mate. It is heavily concave and its not worth the risk to try and eek out any more km's. You might be ok, or you might be looking on the road for your missing teeth after the rim has let go.... New rim time for peace of mind!

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



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