Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
Geoff
Posts: 5136
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

I have to glue-down a basetape edge this weekend. I have 'stolen' some Mapei 220 commercial carpet adhesive from my Commercial Construction Group here in the office. I am pretty sure you can get that in Eastern Europe, as Mapei has a big presence there (though, you may have to steal some from a contractor buddy, or something).

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atakaoka
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:29 am
Location: Ibiuna-SP-Brazil

by atakaoka

I'm using liquid latex to glue the base tape. It work's ok.
cycling,a great individual sport,were you can't reach anything,whithout group effort.

by Weenie


1415chris
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:59 am
Location: Surrey UK

by 1415chris

If you find anything based on latex, it should be fine.

3Pio
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Ok, i know im boring by now :), but im so frustrated trying to glue the rear tub...

While looking for proper glue to glue the base tape, i decide to install the tire that i glued 4 months ago (i was starting my first glue job, so i decide then to use brand new tire and to use this one in the future..)

This tire had a glue 4 months old, this time i just add the glue on spots that where missing..

I prepare the rim after removed the tire with broken base tape, so this rim had allread few layers of glue.. Anyway since there was a big gops of glue, i decide to try to remove them, and at the end i cleaned with aceton (i did not remove the whole glue, just some parts).

Waited to be dry and on top of glue left, i put one layer of glue.

Waited 24 hours, then put another layer and install the tire..

Waited 24 hours and then thumb push test. I remove the tire easy again :(, so consider a failure..

What im doing wrong?

1. Maybe i pust too much on Push Test? (is there any video to check how is proper way). Im asking this even i was not pushing in extreme way.. Just gently push.. But still i consider this as possible reason of failure..

2. Maybe it was wrong using acetone after removing big gops..But still after that i put two new layers, and waited to cured (maybe since i did not removed whole glue, the glue left on the rim was allready compromised with acetone (even i wait to be dry everything), so the two new layers of glue had bad basis layer? )

3. Maybe the glue on tire was in touch with some dust (i keep it at home, but stilll..), so this dirt maybe compromised the glue job later? To be sure, how to clean the tire ? Just a cleaning with a little water? or ?

And should i put a glue only on part missing, or to put another layer everywhere? (allready have thick layer of glue on some of spots..On some is missing completely..)


4. Now i remove big gops from the rim with a screw driver gently (i allready done that), and there is glue missing on some spots.. Should i clean all the glue with aceton (or as much as possible), or to leave it like this, to put one layer of glue then waiting 24 , and another layer then install the tire?

If this is failure again.. I'll make expensive Living Room Clock from the Wheels :)

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Calnago
Posts: 6225
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Set the hands of the clock at 2:10, like they do in all the displays.

Seriously though, maybe tubulars aren't right for you. It looked to me like you put on layers that were way too thick in the first place. Also, acetone won't compromise the glue already on there, but it's next to useless in removing it. Use acetone for wiping the dust off a new rim after you sand it. On a new rim, I use 150 grit (Campy recommends 120 but the closest I had was 150, works fine). Give it a good once over, then rub it down to clean it with acetone. But to remove glue from a rim that's already been glued, I've been using Schwalbes Glue Remover, although I think I'm pretty much out and I can't source it here in North America so I'll try something else next time. It works very well. I always clean a rim completely, thanks to the glue remover, but don't know if I would in the future if I can't find something that works as well. I will just get it "good enough".
I don't quite know how you can be having so much difficulty. With a veloflex tire, for me it's one thin layer on the rim, one on the base tape. Set it aside overnight. Next day, one more thin layer on the rim and mount the tire. Center it, if required, run it over a broom handle with little air in it so the broom handle bottoms out in the rim bed, then pump it up, roll it hard once around and sided to side, then set it aside and ready to ride the next day. Done. It will take me a good 15 minutes to remove that same tire properly (meaning not ripping it violently off the rim and risking pulling carbon fibers with it).
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:Set the hands of the clock at 2:10, like they do in all the displays.

Seriously though, maybe tubulars aren't right for you. It looked to me like you put on layers that were way too thick in the first place. Also, acetone won't compromise the glue already on there, but it's next to useless in removing it. Use acetone for wiping the dust off a new rim after you sand it. On a new rim, I use 150 grit (Campy recommends 120 but the closest I had was 150, works fine). Give it a good once over, then rub it down to clean it with acetone. But to remove glue from a rim that's already been glued, I've been using Schwalbes Glue Remover, although I think I'm pretty much out and I can't source it here in North America so I'll try something else next time. It works very well. I always clean a rim completely, thanks to the glue remover, but don't know if I would in the future if I can't find something that works as well. I will just get it "good enough".
I don't quite know how you can be having so much difficulty. With a veloflex tire, for me it's one thin layer on the rim, one on the base tape. Set it aside overnight. Next day, one more thin layer on the rim and mount the tire. Center it, if required, run it over a broom handle with little air in it so the broom handle bottoms out in the rim bed, then pump it up, roll it hard once around and sided to side, then set it aside and ready to ride the next day. Done. It will take me a good 15 minutes to remove that same tire properly (meaning not ripping it violently off the rim and risking pulling carbon fibers with it).



Last time i have success with new rim, and new tire, the procedure which is explained often. But its not clear how to proceed when u have some glue layers on the rim, and on the tire and u want to reglue everything.

And im very interested about ur procedure when u reglue the tires (so tire have glue allready from last installation, and rim have glue as well from last installation).

And how to clean the tire which allready have a glue, to be sure that its not a problem?

About difficulty i have :) i cant understund my self as well, how it's possible :), and would really like to realize the reasons :) (thats why i start asking that maybe i excess the pressure in thumb test trying to pull tire out..)

And about thick layers, maybe i have them on the tire, but on rim i really had in begining thin and even..

Still, there is something inside me that help me in riding Climbs which i like a lot.. I never give up :) (it's not give up converting Carbon Tubular wheels in Clock i guess in the worst case? :)

p.s In Saturday i'll have a ride of 208 km, Sunday 100 km, and two later again 208 km. I'll really apriciate if someone help me finding what im doing wrong by then, to be able to ride tubs on this ride...

This is how my rim look like after removal:




So should i clean the whole glue as much as possible, and start standard procedure?

If im not removing the glue please tell me exact procedure how to do it


Image

Image

Image

Image


And This is how my tire look like after removal:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Please exact procedure how to do it with tire for both possible scenarios (1. cleaning the whole glue from the rim, and starting from the begining there. 2. Not removing the glue from the rim...)


Really thanks..

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Wingnut
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:41 am

by Wingnut

Calnago wrote:I don't quite know how you can be having so much difficulty. With a veloflex tire, for me it's one thin layer on the rim, one on the base tape. Set it aside overnight. Next day, one more thin layer on the rim and mount the tire. Center it, if required, run it over a broom handle with little air in it so the broom handle bottoms out in the rim bed, then pump it up, roll it hard once around and sided to side, then set it aside and ready to ride the next day. Done. It will take me a good 15 minutes to remove that same tire properly (meaning not ripping it violently off the rim and risking pulling carbon fibers with it).



This +1

The only difference I can see is I don't wait overnight and from watching some Pro Team mechanics (Cannondale Drapac) they can put up to 3-4 layers of glue on the rim prior.
"It's not the destination...it's the ride!"

3Pio
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

While there is very clear how to do the proper glue job when u have totallly clean rims + tires. And i suceed that sitation..

But having problem when there is glue on rim (ok i can always remove whole glue and starting again), and allready having a glue on tire (i dont want to trow away not used tires just because of this). It's situation i have now...

So how u do ur regluing in this kind of situations?

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Calnago
Posts: 6225
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Just scrape what you can off, both tire and rim. Put a fresh layer of glue (thin!) on the base tape. Put a thin layer on the rim. Let it dry overnight along with the tire. Then, just one more thin layer on the rim and mount the tire. Should be fine. If your base tape has started separating form the tire, use some carpet cement as has been suggested on the tape first. Not tubular glue. Don't worry too much about it. Experiment. See how it goes.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

3Pio
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:Just scrape what you can off, both tire and rim. Put a fresh layer of glue (thin!) on the base tape. Put a thin layer on the rim. Let it dry overnight along with the tire. Then, just one more thin layer on the rim and mount the tire. Should be fine. If your base tape has started separating form the tire, use some carpet cement as has been suggested on the tape first. Not tubular glue. Don't worry too much about it. Experiment. See how it goes.


Thanks. Just what i need to continue...

Geoff
Posts: 5136
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

I have to agree with Calnago. When I replace a tubular, the glue remaining on the rim is very smooth and even, with no clumps pulled out of it (it does have an impression left by the texture of the rim tape, though). That is the sign of a good initial glue job - the glue on the rim bed stays put.

I would recommend that you strip that glue and re-do it. To strip that one, I think you need some chemical assistance...

sungod
Posts: 1565
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:37 pm
Location: it's raining, it must be uk

by sungod

+1

maybe the rim still has some release compound from manufacture, or previous cleaning material was contaminated, the glue does seem to have come off a large area

clean it, do a really thin coat first, leave it to fully dry somewhere warm, then you should have a good start for the final glue

3Pio
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

I totaly cleaned the rim, and cleaning the glue from the tire.

But the problem i can see, is that glue leftover (and basetape), look dirty (i forgot to put in the bag, so maybe some dust or something contaminited).

Image

Image

Image

So should i just clean with soap and water, and just reglue it? Or need to replace the whole basetape?

And except TireAlert (which is in USA), is there that kind of services in Europe?

Geoff
Posts: 5136
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

I've seen worse.

Truthfully, you cannot 'clean' the basetape by washing it. Any grime is stuck to the glue. You might try to pick-off the glue that you can get to, then re-glue it. If you apply two more layers of Mastik 1 down on the basetape, letting it cure properly, I'll be you'll be fine.

I would not personally bother to go through all the time and expense to replace that basetape until you need to replace the tube, too.

by Weenie


3Pio
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Geoff wrote:I've seen worse.

Truthfully, you cannot 'clean' the basetape by washing it. Any grime is stuck to the glue. You might try to pick-off the glue that you can get to, then re-glue it. If you apply two more layers of Mastik 1 down on the basetape, letting it cure properly, I'll be you'll be fine.

I would not personally bother to go through all the time and expense to replace that basetape until you need to replace the tube, too.


And one more question.. Still in the quest to find proper glue for the base tape. Cant find recommended glues without ordering. But i found this:

1. https://eshop.wuerth.de/-/0890100064.sku/en/US/EUR/

2. https://eshop.wuerth.de/is-bin/INTERSHO ... E__f8MbtVQ



What do u think, is this suitable for the need (and which one, i guess the second one?)

Thank u



p.s. At least i cleaned the rim almost perfectly. Carogna Remover - Effetto Mariposa is effective. To bad it destroy decals as well (i got damaged part of decal).
Last edited by 3Pio on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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