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Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:52 am
by tetonrider
gb103 wrote:Is this normal? Or am I putting the glue on too thickly? I only ask because I have read that people say they are quicker to replace a tub than a clincher.

if you don't want to save the tire, there is always the option (eg a timed event) of slitting the casing with a razor blade and then using leverage to pull the tire. can be pretty quick but sacrifices the tire.

fdegrove wrote:Keep in mind also that some of us build in some weak spot just for the purpose of being quick in changing a tub.
...
Thick layers of cement are actually even easier but unwanted as they take like for ever to fully cure and up rolling resistance since they just stay too soft. Too much room for minuscule movements creating losses.


just found it interesting to mention both of these in the same post. leaving a weak spot would affect rolling resistance. i'm not saying it matters (that is a personal opinion), but if one is going to say that thicker layers of glue result in higher rolling resistance, then it is worth noting that intentionally leaving a gap in the glue with have a similar effect.

again, no judgment from me on the relative merits, i just want others to know there are trade-offs.

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:52 am
by Weenie

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:57 pm
by Geoff
I think that there are only two things that my Belgian Brother and I agree to disagree. First, that Conti Comps are difficult t install (even on that one, I can see his point as compared to Vittoria); and, second, that deliberately building-in a weak spot on a tubular glue job is a good idea.

To me, we spend such a lot of time ensuring a 'perfect' glue job. We fret and fuss about the preparation of the rim, the choice of glue, gluing technique, etc. We know that several days is required to get the best result. The purpose of all of this is to ensure the maximum bond strength for racing. Why would we do that, then leave a built-in weak spot in that 'perfect' glue job.

I guess for a 'JRA' wheel set...no, even that doesn't make sense.

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:29 pm
by canbakay
for me, i'd struggle to complete trust a glue job with a weak spot, perhaps physiological. changing a set is torture enough (with contis, easy with veloflex etc) so might as well go all out, even if its for the placebo.

on a different note, anyone know how the weight savings are made between the extreme and carbon veloflex. the puncture coating seems to be identical?

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:20 pm
by sungod
afaik it's simply thinner rubber on the extreme

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:42 pm
by fdegrove
Hi,

To me, we spend such a lot of time ensuring a 'perfect' glue job. We fret and fuss about the preparation of the rim, the choice of glue, gluing technique, etc. We know that several days is required to get the best result. The purpose of all of this is to ensure the maximum bond strength for racing. Why would we do that, then leave a built-in weak spot in that 'perfect' glue job.


First of all, "a weak spot" is a no different than adding a few spoke holes to a rim. I mean you can't possibly glue those in any way to not make them a weak spot, right? :D

Either way the choice is for you to have: it's either taking a risk no bigger than me winning the lottery by introducing a point where the tubular can be lifted off the rim or a few more minutes fussing at the side of a road before you can swing that prepped spare on.

As for the higher rolling resistance: a badly glued tubular will exhibit a little higher rolling resistance. Same for overly thick cement. But a 1/2 inch or even less ? I'd be surprised if it were even measurable.
If it is then wheels with fewer spokes should also have lower rolling resistance. Maybe they do, no one's ever measured that AFAIK.

Ciao, ;)

P.S. Still hate mounting these Conti Comps....... :lol:

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:48 pm
by HammerTime2
And Lightweights, which have no spoke holes, being at the top of the heap. Of course, perhaps the rim bed profile matters as well, though.

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:13 am
by fdegrove
Hi,

Of course, perhaps the rim bed profile matters as well, though.


That is indeed quite possible. Shape and width can both influence rolling resistance as could the brand of cement used or a specific formulation.

Ciao, ;)

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:06 am
by Geoff
:D

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:45 am
by Kjetil
sungod wrote:afaik it's simply thinner rubber on the extreme

Also 350 tpi on Extreme v.s. 320 tpi on Carbon.

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:41 am
by MarkThailand
I have only ridden on my HED.C2 23mm wide clincher rim wheels with Vittoria Ultralight butyl tubes with the following tires:
1) Continental GP TT 23c that measure at 24.5 mm,
2) Vittoria EVO CX 23c that measure at 24.7 mm,
3) Vittoria Open Pave EVO CG 24c that measure at 25.5 mm, and
4) Continental GP4000s 25c that measure at 28.2 mm.

I now want to try tubular wheels and have just ordered my first set of tubulars wheels, the ENVE 3.4 wheelset with WI T-11 hubs. To be honest, I am still deciding between glueing the tires on or use a taping solution like Tufo tape. My hesitation on using glue is removing the old glue for tire changes. But, I will cross that bridge once I get to it.

I am now trying to decide on a tubular tire. I am looking at either Vittoria EVO CX 23c or 25c or Veloflex Arenberg 25c or Veloflex Carbon 23c. I have searched the forum for information on these tires but have two remaining unanswered questions:
1) What do these tires measure out to on the rim? Is the 23c really 23 mm and the 25c really 25 mm?
2) Would it makes sense to use a 23c tire on the front wheel and a 25c tire on the rear wheel?

Thank you for your comments.

Mark

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:40 am
by Geoff
If you have been browsing this thread, you'll know there are pretty strong feelings about glue vs tape (wait till you try to remove the tape...). I personally recommend the Vittoria Mastik 1 only.

I think the Vittorias are a very good choice for a first-time tire. I like the All-Weather best for all-around riding, but they are getting pretty scarce now. The CX is the 'standard' for road tires. The new(er) SC is a good choice, too. We used to run CX/CG front/rear 'in the day'. The SC looks similar to the old CG tread pattern. With respect to size, in my experience, the Vittorias are pretty true to size.

For a deep rim bed like the Hed C2, a 25mm rear makes good sense to avoid pinch-flats. I run 22 front and 25 rear on my Hed wheels.

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:56 pm
by chaulk61
MarkThailand wrote:
I am now trying to decide on a tubular tire. I am looking at either Vittoria EVO CX 23c or 25c or Veloflex Arenberg 25c or Veloflex Carbon 23c.
Mark

For what it is worth, I find that Veloflex are a tad easier to mount than Vittoria and they tend to fall into place better....i.e. they require less initial adjusting to straighten when mounted.

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:07 am
by chocy
Just wanted to thanks everyone here for my successful tubular gluing!

I read the whole thread (yes it took really long time...) before getting me a set of Bora One Dark Lable.

I was able to get 2011 Veloflex Carbon from Wiggle (pre-aged I suppose)
and stretched them for about 2 weeks (I was busy)

Using Mastik One I did

2X layers on Rims
1X layer on Tire

and 1X Final on Rims and mount.

I stretched with hand as I mounted them and it went pretty easy. There was a little bit of tire truing but it wasn't too bad and I was able to tune it to less than 1mm. When spinning the rear wheel using crank, there seems to be a little hop but definitely less than what I had with Reynold Assualt clincher. I am sure there should be no issues when riding.

Now the hard part is waiting until the road gets clean enough to ride them!

Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:26 am
by Sisbud
Hi,

I have the mavic cosmic ultimate wheelset and i have been using them with 2 brand of tubular. The first one was the mavic branded powerlink and griplink. The next one is the continental competition.

I am currently thinking about changing the tubulars to either veloflex carbon or fmb (either competition or roubaix). Can anyone who has ridden these two brands shed a light on how different they are? Also, if i happen to choose fmb, which one is better? The competition or roubaix?

Thanks

Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:26 am
by Weenie

Re: Glueing tubulars [the tubular thread]

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:37 am
by Geoff
@chocy, congrats! Sounds like everything went well, then. Sounds like a nice set of wheels.

@Sisbud, I have not been on the Veloflex yet, but know lots of guys who swear by them. My personal favorites are Dugast and FMB. I can tell you from experience, you cannot go wrong with either. Given the guys I know who like the Veloflex, too, I would be prepared to go out on a limb and bet they are in a similar class.

As for FMB, the classic race tires are the CX and the SC. I like the file centre tread. I also prefer the narrower section for everyday riding. The Roubiax tires are just that: Roubaix tires. They are big, robust tubulars for early-season crap and cobbled roads. They are overkill for most road uses. Unless you are using them for the application they were designed for, you'll be happier with the CX or SC variants.