Sub 1300g "everyday" clinchers. Can it be done?

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
cwmak
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:32 am
Contact:

by cwmak

RedRacer wrote:
I highly doubt any pre-built wheel, especially the low spoke count Rolfs, will ever be -as- strong and durable as a custom built set of wheels using 28 or 32 hole hubs/rims, which can be built to a similar weight with the right hub choice, etc.
That doesn't mean that the Rolfs won't be strong -enough- for you though.


I am not trying to be a smart ass (seriously!) but can someone please explain to me how a combination of various parts from different mfgs put together by an independent operator with no particular engineering knowledge of the parts can be lighter, stiffer and stronger than an pre-built set?


Well i think other experts here would agree when i say that wheel builders tend to put more effort and time in a build then most large manufactured pre-built wheels.

Building a good wheel ain't just about it being round or high tensioned or trued but the little things like pre-stressing and maybe soldering or certain choice of spokes and lacing patterns help make a perfect set of wheels. I.e. the claim of stronger, lighter and the personal touch basically.

Large manufacturers have a certain set time in their wheel builds but independent wheel builders have alittle more to spare.

I for one take 45min to an hour for just one wheel.

Hope this helps, if not you can wait for more famous wheel builders on the board to give you a more satisfying answer.

bikemesenger
Shop Owner
Posts: 1323
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Arizona

by bikemesenger

RedRacer wrote:
I am not trying to be a smart ass (seriously!) but can someone please explain to me how a combination of various parts from different mfgs put together by an independent operator with no particular engineering knowledge of the parts can be lighter, stiffer and stronger than an pre-built set?

I understand why selecting your own rims, hubs and spokes can produce a light wheelset but don't companies like Rolf and AC have deep R&D pockets to put together excellent wheelsets?


One of the reasons we can build stiffer, stronger and better wheels is because we don't have a marketing guy behind us telling us what would sell better. The marketing department in a bike company has as much or more say in what gets made then the engineers. If a engineer comes up with 2 designs and one is clearly better but the second is more marketable, guess which one is going to get made?

Rolf makes big claims that his paired spokes makes the wheel as stiff as a wheel with twice the amount of spokes. 20 spokes is still 20 spokes no matter what pattern they are in! Rolf wheels may be stiffer if you measure right at the point on the rim where a pair of spokes are but what happens if you measure a point on the rim between the spokes?

Mavic has always made lots of claims about the Ksyrium wheels. They claim that they are lightweight but the real weight is usually 100+ grams over the claimed weight. They also claim they are aero because of the bladed spokes and low spoke count but they usually finish last or second to last in every wind tunnel I have seen.

As far as R&D I worked for AC, R&D was build it and hope that none come back. How many times has AC fixed there hubs? If they had a large R&D budget do you think there would have been so many revisions? You would be amazed at how many large companies decide to make something put it into production and then pull a sample out of the first production run to test.

by Weenie


RedRacer
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:13 pm

by RedRacer

Who is the best custom wheel builder with the greatest selection of components?

Theros
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:54 pm

by Theros

The guy who posted above you :wink:

OJ
Posts: 878
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:25 pm
Location: Winterpeg

by OJ

Not that I would be an expert in this but...190lbs rider + 1300g wheelset = no good. I'm 20 pounds lighter but I'd never go for that light with clinchers. I'm not a real weightweenie though as I'm pretty much riding the cheapest bike that does the job.

I would go for IRD or some other 400g rim with White Industries or Record hubs and 28/32 spokes with alu nipples. I have no idea how much this would weight but at least it would work pretty well.
http://demarere.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
ras11
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:11 pm
Location: SC, USA

by ras11

1320g... Extralight hubs, Pillar spokes, alloy nipples, Renyolds MVC 24 hole front, 28h rear.
:-) Toys-R-Us

bluredvision
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:41 am

by bluredvision

bikemesenger wrote:Rolf makes big claims that his paired spokes makes the wheel as stiff as a wheel with twice the amount of spokes. 20 spokes is still 20 spokes no matter what pattern they are in! Rolf wheels may be stiffer if you measure right at the point on the rim where a pair of spokes are but what happens if you measure a point on the rim between the spokes?


This test suggests it doesn't make any significant difference if you measure at or between the spokes:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

portuguese mike
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:16 pm
Location: southampton, UK

by portuguese mike

I may be wrong here but i'm pretty sure Rolf Prima wheels are all handbuilt. unless the stickers on my Elan's or the blurb on their website is complete BS.

in any case i love them and they're so much faster than anything else i've tried and they seem durable too - as i've posted before the roads around here resemble the surface of the moon in places and i've had no probs so far (1000km)
mikey

User avatar
ras11
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:11 pm
Location: SC, USA

by ras11

just becuz a wheel is machine built doesn't mean it's bad, nor does a hand built wheel mean it's good. Generally, when the components of the wheel get fragile, more attention/care is needed during assembly, thus the reason why most hig-end wheels are hand built. AFAIK, the only machine built "high-end" wheels are IndustryNine
:-) Toys-R-Us

hyperion3
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 3:59 pm

by hyperion3

I had ac 350, and not happy at all
too flexy
hubs not reliable
maybe they're good for a 55-60 kg rider
my cube limited, only 8,6 kg with etralite wheels:
Image

User avatar
tochnics
Posts: 1155
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:02 pm
Location: around amsterdam

by tochnics

again:

the blingest tune hubs u can afford
dt double butted spokes
dt prolock nipples
open pro rims/dt 1,1 double eyelet rims

light-ish, good looking,strong,sturdy and cheap rims to replace,

RedRacer
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:13 pm

by RedRacer

Are there any carbon clinchers in this weight range? So far the '08 Shamals are at the top of my list but I wish there was something else to consider. Bontrager has a light carbon clincher set but the graphics/decals are straight outta' NASCAR :shock:

User avatar
de zwarten
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:32 pm
Location: belgium

by de zwarten

what clincher tires you will mount? How much can/will you save weight on them? Why not just tubular? I guy from my club here on the worst roads you have in Flanders rides tubulars for 2 seasons allready without a puncture. And you can easily go lighter with them.
I really don't understand light wheels for heavy guys. I would only feel uncomfortable and ride slower because avoiding holes/bad surface etc..

mrfish
Posts: 1666
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland

by mrfish

I know this is weightweenies, but rather than paring weight down to the minimum, another option would be to buy a pair of mid weight aero wheels like CR420s then spend the rest of the budget on inserting a Powertap rear hub and a little bit of training guidance.

Yes it will weigh more, but I suspect it will go faster in a month or two.

Second option is that you've done all the above, in which case get some nice light tub wheels for climbing racing.

urace4me2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:45 pm
Location: Jacksonville Florida

by urace4me2

Stolichnaya wrote:I am not sure how often I have to say it, but those AmClassic 350 Sprints are fragile and worthless with the stock rims. Forget them if you are in the +/- 190 lb range. Actually forget them at any body weight. I watched my wife struggle with a set for a season - rebuilt twice. They now look very fast hanging on the wall in the garage collecting dust.


I have to disagree, respectfully of course. I have raced all year on a set of AC 350s at 182 lbs. Most of the races were downtown criteriums and half the courses would be considered "moderately rough". I have not had to even think about looking for my spoke wrench. I have hit some severe bumps in these crits and every time the wheels come out still true. What was your exact problem with the wheels? Did they just go out of true repeatedly? Are the rims still straight or "flat spotted".

I know some folks don't like the way the bearings have play when they are not under the weight of a rider. Folks are use to the old style cone and race bearings. The cartridge bearings are different. When checking for play put as much of your weight on the saddle as possible before checking. If you read their technical pdfs they talk about this.

by Weenie


Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post