Tubeless Blowout Tracker: Share your experience

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ArtifactsInMotion
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Location: Monmouth County, NJ
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by ArtifactsInMotion

Hi WW,

After both loving and hating the transition to tubeless, I'm looking to aggregate some data on others' experiences.

Please use the template below to share your experience:

Tire Brand: (Continental, Michelin, Pirelli, Veloflex...)
Tire Size: (25mm, 28mm, 30mm...)
Wheel Model: (Shimano C50, Campagnolo Bora WTO 45, Bontrager RSL 62)
Rim/Disc Brake: (Rim, Disc)
Hooked/Hookless: (Hooked, Hookless)
Sealant: (Orange, Stans, Stans Race, Silca...)
Rim Tape: (1 layer ST Swiss, 2 Layers 3M, none, etc.)
Pressure: (5.5bar/80psi)
System Weight (Rider+Bike): (89.4kg/197lbs)
Tire wear: (1000km/620mi)
Blowout Date: (August 1st, 2022)
Indoors/Outdoors?: (Indoors, Outdoors)
Est. Ambient Temp (°C or °F):
Blowout details:(riding 40kmh, hit a pothole, immediately deflated, sidewall rip about 1cm wide)
Pictures (if possible):

I will be maintaining all entries here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
If you have anything that should be edited/added to the template, please let me know!
Last edited by ArtifactsInMotion on Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'22 Orbea Orca Aero 57cm, DA92, Bontrager RSL62, GP5KSTR 28mm, Roval Rapide Cockpit, SLR Superflow Carbonio, 7.8kg

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ArtifactsInMotion
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Location: Monmouth County, NJ
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by ArtifactsInMotion

I'll go first:
Tire Brand: Schwalbe
Tire Size: 25mm
Wheel Model: Campy Bora WTO 45
Rim/Disc Brake: Rim
Hooked/Hookless: Hooked
Sealant: Stans
Rim Tape: None
Pressure: 85psi
System Weight (Rider+Bike): 197lbs
Tire wear: 200mi
Blowout Date: July 24th, 2022
Blowout details:Riding at 18mph, hit a rock about the size of a smartphone, immediate loss of pressure, tire stayed on rim, rip was about 6mm wide, would not hold air nor seal trying to reinflate
'22 Orbea Orca Aero 57cm, DA92, Bontrager RSL62, GP5KSTR 28mm, Roval Rapide Cockpit, SLR Superflow Carbonio, 7.8kg

by Weenie


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Miller
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by Miller

'Tubeless Blowout Tracker' - are you saying blowouts are a thing with TL? Because I think they are not. Any tyre blowouts I've had that scared me were tube-type, and a long time ago, as I've been using TL for a long time.

I try to stay out of these debates nowadays but I don't think this thread will be helpful. It'll just be the usual people taking time out from dissing disc brakes to have a pop at TL for a moment.

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ArtifactsInMotion
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Location: Monmouth County, NJ
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by ArtifactsInMotion

Miller wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:38 pm
'Tubeless Blowout Tracker' - are you saying blowouts are a thing with TL? Because I think they are not. Any tyre blowouts I've had that scared me were tube-type, and a long time ago, as I've been using TL for a long time.

I try to stay out of these debates nowadays but I don't think this thread will be helpful. It'll just be the usual people taking time out from dissing disc brakes to have a pop at TL for a moment.
That's why I provided a template to keep it objective. Haven't had an experience? Don't comment. Want to debate? Take it elsewhere. This is for gathering data and discussing correlations.
'22 Orbea Orca Aero 57cm, DA92, Bontrager RSL62, GP5KSTR 28mm, Roval Rapide Cockpit, SLR Superflow Carbonio, 7.8kg

maxim809
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by maxim809

I would like to see this data collected. OP has done a wonderful job with the template.

Please everyone keep this on topic. No debates. If you feel strongly about a setup, make a new thread and reference the post in question to start a separate discussion.

I'll be deleting/editing stuff that is irrelevant going forward.

maxim809
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by maxim809

ArtifactsInMotion wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:20 pm
If you have anything that should be edited/added to the template, please let me know!
Can you add categories:

"Estimated Ambient Temperature (°C or °F):"
Outdoor/Indoors [Ex: Outdoors riding, Outdoors resting against wall in direct sunlight, Indoors non-ventilated garage ]

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nickf
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by nickf

I would be more interest in a spontaneous blowouts, not hitting a rock or other debris. Sudden bead failures, casing failures. Hitting a rock tubeless or not is going to cause a "blowout".

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ArtifactsInMotion
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Location: Monmouth County, NJ
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by ArtifactsInMotion

nickf wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:35 pm
I would be more interest in a spontaneous blowouts, not hitting a rock or other debris. Sudden bead failures, casing failures. Hitting a rock tubeless or not is going to cause a "blowout".
Still valid, was just giving my most recent experience. Spontaneous events need to be included.
'22 Orbea Orca Aero 57cm, DA92, Bontrager RSL62, GP5KSTR 28mm, Roval Rapide Cockpit, SLR Superflow Carbonio, 7.8kg

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Tire Brand: Mavic Yksion Pro UST
Tire Size: 25mm
Wheel Model: Alto CCX 40
Rim/Disc Brake: Disc / not relevant
Hooked/Hookless: Hookless
Sealant: Orange Seal / not relevant
Rim Tape: Don't remember / not relevant
Pressure: 110psi
System Weight (Rider+Bike): not relevant
Tire wear: 0km / not relevant
Blowout Date: Fall 2017
Blowout details: Initial set-up and sealing. Max sidewall tire pressure on the tires was 102psi. Claimed max pressure on the rims was 110psi. The tire blew off the rim with 5-10min of inflating to 110psi, spraying sealant onto a >3 meter ceiling. The rim did not seem damaged and neither did the tire, honestly. Alto doesn't exist anymore.

Sockman
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by Sockman

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:14 am
Tire Brand: Mavic Yksion Pro UST
Tire Size: 25mm
Wheel Model: Alto CCX 40
Rim/Disc Brake: Disc / not relevant
Hooked/Hookless: Hookless
Sealant: Orange Seal / not relevant
Rim Tape: Don't remember / not relevant
Pressure: 110psi
System Weight (Rider+Bike): not relevant
Tire wear: 0km / not relevant
Blowout Date: Fall 2017
Blowout details: Initial set-up and sealing. Max sidewall tire pressure on the tires was 102psi. Claimed max pressure on the rims was 110psi. The tire blew off the rim with 5-10min of inflating to 110psi, spraying sealant onto a >3 meter ceiling. The rim did not seem damaged and neither did the tire, honestly. Alto doesn't exist anymore.

So you exceeded the max tyre pressure & had a blowout... I can this thread being a graet success! (All in jest)

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Sockman wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:55 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:14 am
Tire Brand: Mavic Yksion Pro UST
Tire Size: 25mm
Wheel Model: Alto CCX 40
Rim/Disc Brake: Disc / not relevant
Hooked/Hookless: Hookless
Sealant: Orange Seal / not relevant
Rim Tape: Don't remember / not relevant
Pressure: 110psi
System Weight (Rider+Bike): not relevant
Tire wear: 0km / not relevant
Blowout Date: Fall 2017
Blowout details: Initial set-up and sealing. Max sidewall tire pressure on the tires was 102psi. Claimed max pressure on the rims was 110psi. The tire blew off the rim with 5-10min of inflating to 110psi, spraying sealant onto a >3 meter ceiling. The rim did not seem damaged and neither did the tire, honestly. Alto doesn't exist anymore.

So you exceeded the max tyre pressure & had a blowout... I can this thread being a graet success! (All in jest)
Yes, I’m not claiming shenanigans here, just providing some data.

This does, however, illustrate that smaller companies marketing hookless rims actually have no idea what they’re talking about. The issue wasn’t that I exceeded Mavic’s max sidewall pressure rating by 8psi, but the fact that Alto’s 110psi max rating was bunk. The tire would have likely blown off at 95-100psi.

Sockman
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:58 pm

by Sockman

Don't ETRTO standards also require that there is a margin for error of more than 10%? Like, if I have a tyre that's rated for 100 psi and a rim that's say 120, I wouldn't want my tryre blowing off at 112psi!

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ArtifactsInMotion
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Location: Monmouth County, NJ
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by ArtifactsInMotion

Template updated in both post & doc, Tobin's entry added
'22 Orbea Orca Aero 57cm, DA92, Bontrager RSL62, GP5KSTR 28mm, Roval Rapide Cockpit, SLR Superflow Carbonio, 7.8kg

maxim809
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by maxim809

Sockman wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:20 am
Don't ETRTO standards also require that there is a margin for error of more than 10%? Like, if I have a tyre that's rated for 100 psi and a rim that's say 120, I wouldn't want my tryre blowing off at 112psi!
ETRTO standards for hookless is on the border of being 'undefined'. It's loosely set at 72psi as the max global limit, or 110% of error on what's imprinted on the tire / rim sidewalls (as opposed to clinchers which some can go up to 200% before the tire blows off). And you're not even supposed to talk further than that -- you need to buy an ERTRO Standards Book for €500 and physically look up further details and keep them to yourself. The info is not something one can reference online, because selling that book is one of the ways ERTRO makes money.

A few variables that SHOULD go into the recommended PSI ranges are:
1. Hookless carbon rim tolerances (Not standardized)
2. Tire manufacturing tolerances (Not standardized)
3. Total rider + bike system weight (Complex, highly region based because US is avg 85~95kg for avg rider, Asia/EU might be lighter. But still bound-able)
4. Projected true tire width when mounted, across different carbon inner width (Not standardized)
5. Ambient and Environmental conditions (Complex, but bound-able)


Hookless is the future. Tubeless is the only thing companies are investing R&D into. Nobody is working on clinchers and tubulars are done. There are good things to come of hookless technology.

But the tech is moving faster than the standardization (chicken and egg). Very few companies have Vertical Integration (VI) between Tire & Rims that gives them the potential to conduct deep testing on their in-house models of wheels and tires. Enve is an example that's spearheading this today and I'm optimistic they'll continue to provide better guidance on tire vs rim recommended setups as they continue to innovate. But Roval, who has VI, didn't even test their tubeless setups on their 2020 Rapide/Alpinist CLX and Sagan blows the tire & wheels while hopping a curb. So VI doesn't even guarantee manufacturers will do the right testing.

A bigger issue is that cyclists love to mix and match different parts (wide vs thin vs "regular" tires, different types of sealants, on different rims whether name brand, a third party, or an up and coming value brand). So the landscape of permutations is unbounded. With NO standards that customers can even look up for their special cases. And what if you are 95kg running 32mm's? Maybe you should be running 32psi, but the standards will say this is illegal. So you pump to 72psi on the upper limit, and your floor pump has gone out of calibration over the decade, and now you're playing with fire. It's easy for all of us on WW who nerd into the details, but it's a big safety factor for the regular consumers.

And today there is a chicken and egg problem caused by the need to innovate fast, no single tire or wheel company truly being able to "own" the spec, the need to keep manufacturing costs low (which drives tolerance requirements, or lack thereof).



This is why I want to see this thread grow. I know I said no debates/arguments/blah, but whatever. My goal is to provide justifications for WHY this thread should exist, rather than people stomping against it "cuz n=1 never had a problem".

I see multiple blowouts within my community per year on HOOKED tubeless, and each has its unique root-causes. We should all try to understand the failure modes so we can live in peace.

by Weenie


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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I don’t think I’ve seen a blowout with hooked tubeless in my community (basically all of the NCNCA racing district.) I have seen beads peel back mid-slide/crash, resulting in sealant spray.

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