Bora WTO 60 vs Bora Ultra 50 Rim Brake

[rollinslow]

I tried this in the Bora WTO thread but just got buried in the other action there. I currently have WTO 45's in rim brake on my Moots with SR12. I was to make sure I have a backup Campy wheelset given the market direction. Should I get the one of the last remaining Bora Ultra 50's or go with the Bora WTO 60's? The ultras are looking a bit dated in my opinion but could be cool to have the last rim brake ultras. The 33's would shave a little weight but the 45's handle crosswinds just fine.

The WTO 45's have been so good, I am tempted to just get a second set and have one tubed, one tubless. Opinions appreciated!

[maverick_1]

I have the WTO60, WT045, Bora Ultra 35 clinchers, and the good ol' 50mm Bora Ultra Two (tubulars).

Below is just my humble opinion though..
my guess is the Bora Ultra 50 will roll better than the WTO60, less susceptible to wind, lighter weight (for tubs), and accelerates better than the WTO.

I would say if the price is good, you should go for it.

[maxim809]

For your situation, the one ease-of-life advantage of WTO 60:

No need to mess with calipers when swapping wheels.
It's the same external width as your WTO 45 (26.5mm). The Ultra 50 is (24.2mm).
You can swap between 45's and 60's and get the same braking performance. It's a whole thing when I switch between my C17 and C19 wheel sets, and I find myself dreading having to swap between different ext width rims, that I no longer do it unless it's REALLY important.

Some other facts, of which the use cases are matters of opinion:

1. Ultra 50 is C17, optimized for 23mm tires.
2. WTO 60 is C19, optimized for 25mm tires.

My GP5k clinchers inflate true to size when mounted on the rim. Whether by coincidence or planned engineering, when matching the optimized tire on the respective rims they both round out close to the 105~106% rule. Proper matching will help with both speed*, and stability in crosswinds. I usually think about what tire width I want to use, and factor that into my C17 or C19 decision. Asterisk* is above 17mph for the front setup. Below that speed, rolling resistance (Crr) will dominate aero (CdA), so you can ride whatever wider tires you want for better rolling resistance as long as it doesn't balloon too much when mounted...so tracking and stability don't get too weird. But anyway... up to the reader whether they want to take my word on the last few sentences, but there it is.

Next:

CULT vs USB (Ultra vs WTO) hmm... the difference is in the name. As long as the bearings and race are in tolerance, it's all about the lubricant and seal if friction is the goal. And regular maintenance. My take is CULT sounds fancy but an overhauled WTO USB with mineral oil can't possibly be far off, if not identical?

The Ultra (clincher) is ~100g lighter. Personal choice on how important this is. Tubs are a different story but I am assuming clinchers since you're comparing against WTO's.

Stability is also very personal to how you have your bike setup, and also how turbulent the wind patterns are where you live. Both 50's and 60's will be deeper, but not by much. The 60's will dramatically change the look of your Moots. The 50's, based on which decals you get, could match the color and tone of your Moots. Sorry to make this decision harder for you.

Braking and freewheel hub sounds will both be louder and richer on the WTO 60's than the 45's. Assume both hubs are overhauled of factory grease. The deeper wheels help transmit sound better.

Lastly, I have my 45's setup tubeless and my 60's setup clincher, similar to how you envision. Swapping is a cinch. It's a great combo.

[rollinslow]

Thank you both for such great insight. I really appreviate it. I decided to order the WTO 60's because I have been so happy with the WTO 45's and like the idea of just swapping and no adjustment of the brakes etc needed. I plan to put the Corsa speed tubless 25's on both and have a blazing fast wheelset.

[bobones]

I plan to put the Corsa speed tubless 25's on both and have a blazing fast wheelset.

You'd be better off with Corsa Speed 23s as they measure 25 mm on the WTOs.

These are v1 speeds, but v2 were the same. 25 mm GP 5000 S TR come out at this width too and are far more robust and durable, but nothing beats the speed and feel of the Speeds.

[rollinslow]

I plan to put the Corsa speed tubless 25's on both and have a blazing fast wheelset.

You'd be better off with Corsa Speed 23s as they measure 25 mm on the WTOs.

These are v1 speeds, but v2 were the same. 25 mm GP 5000 S TR come out at this width too and are far more robust and durable, but nothing beats the speed and feel of the Speeds.

Thanks! Are you running those tubeless and how has your experience been?

[bobones]

Yes, I was running them tubeless for 2 summers with Orange Seal regular sealant @ 80 PSI. I had the G1s in 2020 and the G2.0s in 2021. Easily the fastest tyre I've ever ridden, and felt like I was adding 1-2 mph to my average speed without trying (probably not though!).

The main problems were that the rear tyres would wear down to the carcass within 1000 miles or so and be guaranteed several punctures in that time. Punctures in the tread would generally seal with Orange Seal and not lose too much pressure, but those in the sidewall would tend to need a Dynaplug. Front tyres hardly ever punctured and would last much longer than the rears.

I got them cheap from Merlin Cycles (about £28.50 each for the G1s and £33 for the G2s) and bought around 3 pairs of each (G1 & 2), but they just don't last long enough to make them economically viable (to me anyway) at full price as I probably do around 1000 miles a month during the summer.

I found them quite hard to mount and dismount on the WTOs and used a tyre seating tool like this to get them on.

I'm on 25 mm GP5000 S TRs now, and they don't pick up punctures easily and last much longer, but don't feel as good or as fast as the Speeds. If you can find the Speeds in stock, then by all means give them a shot, but buy 3 for each pair of wheels as you'll surely get through the rear quicker than the front!

[rollinslow]

Got it. Okay, ordered the 25mm GP5k S TR's instead. Thanks for the advice!

[eurperg]

I just made the change from Bora One 50 tubular + Veloflex Pro Tour 25mm to Bora WTO 60 + GP5000 TR 25mm.

The WTO’s added 300 grams of weight and definitely feel heavier, but also more stable and are a nice ride in general. I think the tubeless setup with 5/6bar pressure feels just as supple and smooth as Veloflex, if not better.

I loved how I was able to mount the GP5000TR’s with bare hands and then inflate them tubeless with a Zefal track pump. At least with WTO’s, they have just the correct balance between easy mounting but still being tight enough that a compressor is not needed. Best road bike tubeless experience this far for such a narrow tire.

[rollinslow]

I just made the change from Bora One 50 tubular + Veloflex Pro Tour 25mm to Bora WTO 60 + GP5000 TR 25mm.

The WTO’s added 300 grams of weight and definitely feel heavier, but also more stable and are a nice ride in general. I think the tubeless setup with 5/6bar pressure feels just as supple and smooth as Veloflex, if not better.

I loved how I was able to mount the GP5000TR’s with bare hands and then inflate them tubeless with a Zefal track pump. At least with WTO’s, they have just the correct balance between easy mounting but still being tight enough that a compressor is not needed. Best road bike tubeless experience this far for such a narrow tire.

Awesome to hear! On my disc gravel/all road bike, I have a two wheelsets but for road I use the Bora WTO 60's running the original GP5k 32mm tubeless and that setup has also been excellent. Really looking forward to using the rim brake 60's on my favorite bike.

[MrCurrieinahurry]

Maaaan all these comments make me realise I NEED these WTOs 60 not just want them.

Basso Diamante super record EPS 12
BMC slr01 ultegra Di2

[eurperg]

I also have GP5000 TR 32 mm on my Shamal Carbons, and they are a nice combination for all road riding.

I was expecting the TR 25 mm would be a lot harder to mount than TR 32, but there was no difference really. The 25 measures at 25,1 mm on WTO’s.

I think the WTO’s look better because the font is a bit smaller.

[rollinslow]

That C60 is stunning! Both wheelsets look equally great. Thanks for all the info on the 60's!