Is Road Hookless dangerous?

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Poddle
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:16 am

by Poddle

^^^^^

Agreed. Specialized were naughty in how they weren't honest about the reason for the change but they did the correct (safe) thing for consumers which was take immediate action.

I also think Giant should be applauded for the very thorough testing of their hookless technology and approved tyres. Yes it means your preferred tyre may not be recommended but they provide clear guidance to consumers so we can go about our business riding tyres that we know are safe.

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JayDee81
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by JayDee81

pmprego wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:17 am
JayDee81 wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:51 am
pmprego wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:52 pm
rollinslow wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:06 pm


Thats a good point though I would say that what I think is more likely is that these US based companies are ultimately held accountable if there is a lapse in safety. I wouldn't trust that the testing done necessary guarantees safety. Just look at Boeing.....allowed to do their own safety assessment and we all know what that led to.
Screw ups can happen. You test stuff and then release to the real world and you realize none of yours tests were good enough. But you immediately remove it when shit happens (see the roval rapide 1). If they were not removed by now it's because they are safe. Otherwise problems would have emerged by now.
Well the Rovals are quite another case actually. There's an extensive article on CyclingTips about it. Their solution was more like Boeing designing an airplane for 500 passengers but discovering it can only safely carry 250 passengers, then changing nothing but the passenger limit so the planes are unchanged but carry half the passengers.
Didn't they make it non tubeless approved? They didn't say why (only until rapide 2) but they didn't sell it tubeless. I really don't get the comparison.
Yes, that's what they did. The comparison suggests that no change has been done to the product but it's 'legal' use has been limited instead.

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pmprego
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by pmprego

Just like when a frame or wheel manufacturer puts a weight limit on their product. They are limiting its use to a specific parameter.

ooo
Posts: 1590
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

This may happend on hookless tubeless and hook tubeless too

https://www.reddit.com/r/gravelcycling/comments/wcctmz/i_can_no_longer_recommend_hunt_wheels/
bask3tcase825 wrote: So I got this Hunt 35s not even a few weeks ago. Everything has been fantastic until now.

I have ridden these wheels on paved roads the for a grand total of three rides as I have multiple bikes.

I’ve kept my pressures below the max recommended and overall treated the wheels very well. Even storing them in a very expensive wheel bag as I worked on my new build where I wanted these to go on.

When I set them up tubelessly? Everything worked out without a hitch as well, tires came on pretty easily.

It really has been an amazing time with them until today.

As I was prepping the new ride cleaning it and lubricating it for my ride tomorrow, I placed these wheels aside and as soon as I turned around, the rear wheel exploded onto my ear temporarily making me deaf on my left and a piece of carbon went in my eye.

I’m very shaken up by this.

Guess I’m posting this as 1) I’m appalled and felt like everyone needed to see this and 2) drum up some theories for everyone to learn from.

I hope no one ever experiences this from any manufacturer. Ever.

PS I reached out to Hunt but I got an away message. Guess I’ll get someone on Monday.
Image Image
three_martini_lunch wrote: I saw two people with destroyed Hunt’s at Unbound. One guy was near a water crossing and looked like his wheels was in 2-3 pieces. Another tacoed and cracked near a spoke while he was taking a turn on the front of our group. It was on a chunkier section, but nothing out of the ordinary for Unbound. Those were the only destroyed wheels I saw (though lots of flats and I was near the front).
starnut_propaganda wrote: Rim most likely wasn’t set up tubeless right and the rim filled with air over time basically making it a bomb.
gott_in_nizza wrote: I have these on all my carbon wheels for this reason

https://www.enve.com/product/pressure-relief-valve-stem-nut/
Image

Image
'

pmprego
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by pmprego

it happened to me on a hooked rim.

Attermann
Posts: 922
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Location: Denmark

by Attermann

Manufacturers just need to drill some small holes in the side of the rim, so water and air can get out.

Cemicar
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:40 am

by Cemicar

I think we can easily avoid those air bombs with drilling small drain holes in the rims, but not sure how many brands offer them (e.g. . Light Bicycle). ENVE should be the last one because they only want to mold holes, hence selling such a valve nut.

req110
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by req110

Airbombs? If the air gets through the rim tape, it will leave the rim through the spokes isn't it?
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rollinslow
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by rollinslow

Fortunately Campy wheels have a full carbon rim bed and thus no need for rim tape.
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Hexsense
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

req110 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:47 pm
Airbombs? If the air gets through the rim tape, it will leave the rim through the spokes isn't it?
Depend how fast the air can get out. On many wheels, it's not fast enough through spoke holes.

If it's too slow, a sudden blast of 40psi or more built up in the rim as the tape fail will explode sidewall before the pressure release by any significant amount.

spartacus
Posts: 1049
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

rollinslow wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:01 pm
Hookless was done solely to reduce manufacturing complexity and reduce cost. It has no benefit to the consumer.
I'm an engineer and IMO I would agree with this assessment.

Furthermore 72psi seems really low to me. I am under 70kg and that's right at where i want to be for a 25c tire. Many or most cyclists I come across are heavier than that, so unless they are on bigger tires the numbers can't add up.

pmprego
Posts: 2522
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Hexsense wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:19 pm
req110 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:47 pm
Airbombs? If the air gets through the rim tape, it will leave the rim through the spokes isn't it?
Depend how fast the air can get out. On many wheels, it's not fast enough through spoke holes.

If it's too slow, a sudden blast of 40psi or more built up in the rim as the tape fail will explode sidewall before the pressure release by any significant amount.
it happened to me when I was not able to mount a pair of new conti gp5000 TL. I took the to the store and left the wheels there. when I picked them up they said it was a nightmare to mount but were able to. I remember noticing some dried sealant near some spokes but I consider that just not very well cleaned wheel post-installation. After the incident which it was not immediate I found myself thinking if that dried sealant near the spokes were not signs of tape that was leaking and the sealant covered the spoke holes not leaving air lease the rim. This is to say that it's not linear that the air will leave through the holes (added to the good argument presented by hexsense).

pmprego
Posts: 2522
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

spartacus wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:24 pm
rollinslow wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:01 pm
Hookless was done solely to reduce manufacturing complexity and reduce cost. It has no benefit to the consumer.
I'm an engineer and IMO I would agree with this assessment.

Furthermore 72psi seems really low to me. I am under 70kg and that's right at where i want to be for a 25c tire. Many or most cyclists I come across are heavier than that, so unless they are on bigger tires the numbers can't add up.
if you're an engineer you know that the rules are clearly stated. if you need more that 72psi, use a bigger tire. If you don't want to ride that "low" psi, don't buy hookless. If you don't want to go bigger tire, don't buy hookless. for me, it's rather simple. I don't get what's the fuss about.

spartacus
Posts: 1049
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

pmprego wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:28 pm
spartacus wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:24 pm
rollinslow wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:01 pm
Hookless was done solely to reduce manufacturing complexity and reduce cost. It has no benefit to the consumer.
I'm an engineer and IMO I would agree with this assessment.

Furthermore 72psi seems really low to me. I am under 70kg and that's right at where i want to be for a 25c tire. Many or most cyclists I come across are heavier than that, so unless they are on bigger tires the numbers can't add up.
if you're an engineer you know that the rules are clearly stated. if you need more that 72psi, use a bigger tire. If you don't want to ride that "low" psi, don't buy hookless. If you don't want to go bigger tire, don't buy hookless. for me, it's rather simple. I don't get what's the fuss about.
We engineers are trained to design in what is called a safety factor. In regulated industries where bodily harm is possible, 0 safety factor is completely uneaccetable and can open you up (rightfully so imo) to legal liability. Personally I am unwilling to accept anything less than 50% in this case*, due to manufacturing and QC variability in tires and rims. What you all choose to do is up to you.

*this is even assuming there is a safety factor built into the existing spec, a 2x safety factor would be ideal.

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Hexsense
Posts: 3279
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

spartacus wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:24 pm
rollinslow wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:01 pm
Hookless was done solely to reduce manufacturing complexity and reduce cost. It has no benefit to the consumer.
Furthermore 72psi seems really low to me. I am under 70kg and that's right at where i want to be for a 25c tire. Many or most cyclists I come across are heavier than that, so unless they are on bigger tires the numbers can't add up.
Counterpoint, 72psi is plenty IMO, especially on these wide rims. It's no longer the age of 15mm internal width road wheel, it's now the age of wide rims.
I weight 66kg right now (though my race weight was 62kg). And My 25c Continental GP5000 gets 58psi on front wheel (rear is 28c). By linear scaling, 25c front and 28c rear at 72psi would be usable up to 81kg.

Then, rider heavier than 81kg but below 100kg can switch to 28c front and 30c rear to stay within 72psi. Even heavier riders also have option of 30c front 32c rear then 32c front,34c rear tires which are emerging on many fast road tires.

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