Is Road Hookless dangerous?

[IvanZg]

The issue I have with hookless is more related to the standardization than anything else. For example look at the Giant and their recommendations. Some tires that are on the list of tires that should not be used with Giant’s wheels are actually made to etrto standard. Some of them should not be used at all, some are excluded in certain tire widths although by the standard those widths are ok to be used on their rims. Apparently those tires/rim combinations did not passed Giant’s internal testing. Is this actually necessary, should it be done for hooked rims/tires as well… I have no idea
On the other hand is the bead and hook actual guarantee of anything? I had a tire pop of my rim (both made to etrto standard) while doing fast descent.
I doubt that you realistically can improve your safety just by choosing the way tire mounts to the rim as most of the info you get is probably based on hearsay and anecdotes where you do not know what underline cause was. I guess the only way to make sure you’re not doing something that might cause a problem is to check if there are no recommendations from the manufacturers (both rim and tire) not to use the products you’re buying and make sure it’s properly installed.
Good luck with the recovery.

[JayDee81]

Not that it currently applies to me as I ride the previous gen Giant SLR1 wheels, which are 18 ID and hooked (also running tubes), but considering a new bike (the new Propel) I've been wondering about the hookless thing.

It seems that the current pressure limit on most hookless rims is 72 psi. When I use Silca or Zipp tire pressure calculator considering 28 mm tires and 21 ID rims, which is like the current standard for new bikes, the suggested pressure is just below the 72 psi limit or right at it and that's considering 68 kg rider (total system weight 78 kg with bike and bottles etc.). I mean who is that for then? Many people are like 75+ kg and those would already be over the limit for 28 mm tires. Taking racing into question you cannot run aero 25 mm tires at all. Also I heard on some podcast that the safety margin with hooked is like 50% or 100%, but with hookless it's 20%, which makes it even more mind boggling. Seems to me just like cost savings in manufacture.

E: Just realized that in the Zipp calculator I had selected tubless crooked (not hookless), but then there comes the question why is there lower pressure recommended for hookless rims? I mean the tire bulging difference is rather small to make pressure difference of 1.5 mm narrower (or wider) tire or it isn't?

[warthog101]

The issue I have with hookless is more related to the standardization than anything else. For example look at the Giant and their recommendations. Some tires that are on the list of tires that should not be used with Giant’s wheels are actually made to etrto standard. Some of them should not be used at all, some are excluded in certain tire widths although by the standard those widths are ok to be used on their rims. Apparently those tires/rim combinations did not passed Giant’s internal testing. Is this actually necessary, should it be done for hooked rims/tires as well… I have no idea
On the other hand is the bead and hook actual guarantee of anything? I had a tire pop of my rim (both made to etrto standard) while doing fast descent.
I doubt that you realistically can improve your safety just by choosing the way tire mounts to the rim as most of the info you get is probably based on hearsay and anecdotes where you do not know what underline cause was. I guess the only way to make sure you’re not doing something that might cause a problem is to check if there are no recommendations from the manufacturers (both rim and tire) not to use the products you’re buying and make sure it’s properly installed.
Good luck with the recovery.

WHAT TIRES CAN I USE?

Giant WheelSystems are built to be used as a system and Giant and CADEX tires are always the best choice.

However, should you prefer to run a non-Giant or CADEX tire, listed below are the tires with an indicated maximum pressure above 72.5psi (5 bar) that have passed the Giant test protocol for use with Giant hookless rims. Please note that if the maximum pressure indicated for a tire is 72.5psi (5 bar) or lower and the tire is tubeless and hookless rim compatible as per the tire brand or manufacturer's recommendation, it can be used with Giant hookless WheelSystems and does not have to appear on the chart below

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/global/h ... technology

[FlatlandClimber]

Maybe the thing with the margin concerns some makers. ENVE only recommends tires that pass at least 50% more pressure than what the wheel is officially rated for.
So that's 137psi or more for their 2.3 and 109PSI for 3.4 and 4.5.

Re AXS tire pressure:
Given 78kg system, I get 63/67psi for thin casing (TT tires),
57/61 for standard casing (GP5000STR).
With the latter, even a 112kg system would work, which is the max on most bikes anyway.

[IvanZg]

The issue I have with hookless is more related to the standardization than anything else. For example look at the Giant and their recommendations. Some tires that are on the list of tires that should not be used with Giant’s wheels are actually made to etrto standard. Some of them should not be used at all, some are excluded in certain tire widths although by the standard those widths are ok to be used on their rims. Apparently those tires/rim combinations did not passed Giant’s internal testing. Is this actually necessary, should it be done for hooked rims/tires as well… I have no idea
On the other hand is the bead and hook actual guarantee of anything? I had a tire pop of my rim (both made to etrto standard) while doing fast descent.
I doubt that you realistically can improve your safety just by choosing the way tire mounts to the rim as most of the info you get is probably based on hearsay and anecdotes where you do not know what underline cause was. I guess the only way to make sure you’re not doing something that might cause a problem is to check if there are no recommendations from the manufacturers (both rim and tire) not to use the products you’re buying and make sure it’s properly installed.
Good luck with the recovery.

WHAT TIRES CAN I USE?

Giant WheelSystems are built to be used as a system and Giant and CADEX tires are always the best choice.

However, should you prefer to run a non-Giant or CADEX tire, listed below are the tires with an indicated maximum pressure above 72.5psi (5 bar) that have passed the Giant test protocol for use with Giant hookless rims. Please note that if the maximum pressure indicated for a tire is 72.5psi (5 bar) or lower and the tire is tubeless and hookless rim compatible as per the tire brand or manufacturer's recommendation, it can be used with Giant hookless WheelSystems and does not have to appear on the chart below

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/global/h ... technology

This is the exact problem as it does not say anything usefull. There are no racing tires in widths of 25/28mm that will specify to have working pressure of 5bar or less.
Manufacturers will claim that their tires can be used if etrto is followed

quote from velofelx

"Are your Tubeless Ready hookless (for hookless rims)?
We confirm our TubeLess Ready clinchers are suitable for hookless rims as long as the E.T.R.T.O. standard matches are respected, which are more thoroughly explained on our blog."

example from giant's website you linked

VELOFLEX CORSA EVO TLR in 25mm is fine, in 28mm is not suppose to be used?!

So is current standard utter crap or not followed while claimed to be?

[FlatlandClimber]

This is the exact problem as it does not say anything usefull. There are no racing tires in widths of 25/28mm that will specify to have working pressure of 5bar or less.

GP5000s TR and GP5000 TT specify exactlyc that pressure is limited to 5bar when set up hookless, higher pressure depending on width for hooked application.

[JayDee81]

Re AXS tire pressure:
Given 78kg system, I get 63/67psi for thin casing (TT tires),
57/61 for standard casing (GP5000STR).
With the latter, even a 112kg system would work, which is the max on most bikes anyway.

Is that described anywhere that thin casing is only TT tires? I assumed all high end tires to be thin casing and cheaper (often called training) tires to be standard casing (for example Vittoria Corsa vs Zaffiro). Then you have the reinforced casing which is Conti Gatorskin for example.

[warthog101]

The issue I have with hookless is more related to the standardization than anything else. For example look at the Giant and their recommendations. Some tires that are on the list of tires that should not be used with Giant’s wheels are actually made to etrto standard. Some of them should not be used at all, some are excluded in certain tire widths although by the standard those widths are ok to be used on their rims. Apparently those tires/rim combinations did not passed Giant’s internal testing. Is this actually necessary, should it be done for hooked rims/tires as well… I have no idea
On the other hand is the bead and hook actual guarantee of anything? I had a tire pop of my rim (both made to etrto standard) while doing fast descent.
I doubt that you realistically can improve your safety just by choosing the way tire mounts to the rim as most of the info you get is probably based on hearsay and anecdotes where you do not know what underline cause was. I guess the only way to make sure you’re not doing something that might cause a problem is to check if there are no recommendations from the manufacturers (both rim and tire) not to use the products you’re buying and make sure it’s properly installed.
Good luck with the recovery.

WHAT TIRES CAN I USE?

Giant WheelSystems are built to be used as a system and Giant and CADEX tires are always the best choice.

However, should you prefer to run a non-Giant or CADEX tire, listed below are the tires with an indicated maximum pressure above 72.5psi (5 bar) that have passed the Giant test protocol for use with Giant hookless rims. Please note that if the maximum pressure indicated for a tire is 72.5psi (5 bar) or lower and the tire is tubeless and hookless rim compatible as per the tire brand or manufacturer's recommendation, it can be used with Giant hookless WheelSystems and does not have to appear on the chart below

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/global/h ... technology

This is the exact problem as it does not say anything usefull. There are no racing tires in widths of 25/28mm that will specify to have working pressure of 5bar or less.
Manufacturers will claim that their tires can be used if etrto is followed

quote from velofelx

"Are your Tubeless Ready hookless (for hookless rims)?
We confirm our TubeLess Ready clinchers are suitable for hookless rims as long as the E.T.R.T.O. standard matches are respected, which are more thoroughly explained on our blog."

example from giant's website you linked

VELOFLEX CORSA EVO TLR in 25mm is fine, in 28mm is not suppose to be used?!

So is current standard utter crap or not followed while claimed to be?

If I had Giant wheels I would follow their advice.
The Giant test protocol involves testing tyre to 1.5x its' indicated max pressure for 24hrs without blowing off.
I haven't found the listed max pressure for that tyre but it is probably higher than 72.5psi.
(Edit; the listed max pressure is 100psi. Therefore it hasn't stayed seated at 150psi for 24/24)
It appears to me they are covering their arse for people pumping up tyres to the listed max pressure which may apply to a hooked rim and having them unseat.
If the max pressure is listed as the ETRTO max that risk is not there I assume.

I have ETRTO compliant wheels and run ETRTO compliant tyres.
It is not that hard.
At my heavier than normal winter weight of 80kg 72.5 psi in a 28mm tyre is more than enough. I run less pressure than that.

[FlatlandClimber]

Re AXS tire pressure:
Given 78kg system, I get 63/67psi for thin casing (TT tires),
57/61 for standard casing (GP5000STR).
With the latter, even a 112kg system would work, which is the max on most bikes anyway.

Is that described anywhere that thin casing is only TT tires? I assumed all high end tires to be thin casing and cheaper (often called training) tires to be standard casing (for example Vittoria Corsa vs Zaffiro). Then you have the reinforced casing which is Conti Gatorskin for example.

That's why I asked SRAM specifically and no, road tires like S TR is "standard".

[robertbb]

Hookless was done solely to reduce manufacturing complexity and reduce cost. It has no benefit to the consumer. The arguement that it may improve aerodynamics is trivial. On a hooked rim, the concern of a blow-off due to pressure or cornerning is essentially non-existent. This is a differnt circumstance than a flat tire. I personally would not bother with hookless as I don't want to take any additional unnecessary risks. It also bothers me that companies charge the same or more for their new hookless version when the manufacturing cost is now significantly lower. The risk of your tire blowing off the rim is very real, and real enough that each manufacturer is careful to spell-out what is allowed on their wheel. Something to think about is whether in 5 years, they will even make your wheel and the tire approved for it.

They also charge more for electronic groupsets, when the manufacturing cost is significantly reduced..... especially at the shifters!

There'd be blood in the streets if people knew what this electronic stuff costs them to produce, versus what they charge.

If only products were priced solely according to BOM. Medicines? Nope. Phones? Nope. Cars? Nah. The pants you’re wearing right now? Nope.

Been working from home since March 2020 - I don't wear pants anymore.

[pmprego]

One of the many reasons major brands. Prices are higher than Chinese made products is safety control and brand damage if anything would happen.

Samsung note 7: huge fiasco, huge loss but no one died (I think).

Zipp hookless wheels: clients start getting blowouts here and there, some die, major class action lawsuits start, criminal charges eventually emerge, zipp goes bankrupt and closes business. Does it seem likely?

By zipp, I could also add enve, huge brand giant and some others. The safety part has to assured by design.

One might want higher psi and consider the "low" psi of hookless a con of this technology but this is not a safety aspect.

[rollinslow]

One of the many reasons major brands. Prices are higher than Chinese made products is safety control and brand damage if anything would happen.

Samsung note 7: huge fiasco, huge loss but no one died (I think).

Zipp hookless wheels: clients start getting blowouts here and there, some die, major class action lawsuits start, criminal charges eventually emerge, zipp goes bankrupt and closes business. Does it seem likely?

By zipp, I could also add enve, huge brand giant and some others. The safety part has to assured by design.

One might want higher psi and consider the "low" psi of hookless a con of this technology but this is not a safety aspect.

Thats a good point though I would say that what I think is more likely is that these US based companies are ultimately held accountable if there is a lapse in safety. I wouldn't trust that the testing done necessary guarantees safety. Just look at Boeing.....allowed to do their own safety assessment and we all know what that led to.

[pmprego]

One of the many reasons major brands. Prices are higher than Chinese made products is safety control and brand damage if anything would happen.

Samsung note 7: huge fiasco, huge loss but no one died (I think).

Zipp hookless wheels: clients start getting blowouts here and there, some die, major class action lawsuits start, criminal charges eventually emerge, zipp goes bankrupt and closes business. Does it seem likely?

By zipp, I could also add enve, huge brand giant and some others. The safety part has to assured by design.

One might want higher psi and consider the "low" psi of hookless a con of this technology but this is not a safety aspect.

Thats a good point though I would say that what I think is more likely is that these US based companies are ultimately held accountable if there is a lapse in safety. I wouldn't trust that the testing done necessary guarantees safety. Just look at Boeing.....allowed to do their own safety assessment and we all know what that led to.

Screw ups can happen. You test stuff and then release to the real world and you realize none of yours tests were good enough. But you immediately remove it when shit happens (see the roval rapide 1). If they were not removed by now it's because they are safe. Otherwise problems would have emerged by now.

[JayDee81]

One of the many reasons major brands. Prices are higher than Chinese made products is safety control and brand damage if anything would happen.

Samsung note 7: huge fiasco, huge loss but no one died (I think).

Zipp hookless wheels: clients start getting blowouts here and there, some die, major class action lawsuits start, criminal charges eventually emerge, zipp goes bankrupt and closes business. Does it seem likely?

By zipp, I could also add enve, huge brand giant and some others. The safety part has to assured by design.

One might want higher psi and consider the "low" psi of hookless a con of this technology but this is not a safety aspect.

Thats a good point though I would say that what I think is more likely is that these US based companies are ultimately held accountable if there is a lapse in safety. I wouldn't trust that the testing done necessary guarantees safety. Just look at Boeing.....allowed to do their own safety assessment and we all know what that led to.

Screw ups can happen. You test stuff and then release to the real world and you realize none of yours tests were good enough. But you immediately remove it when shit happens (see the roval rapide 1). If they were not removed by now it's because they are safe. Otherwise problems would have emerged by now.

Well the Rovals are quite another case actually. There's an extensive article on CyclingTips about it. Their solution was more like Boeing designing an airplane for 500 passengers but discovering it can only safely carry 250 passengers, then changing nothing but the passenger limit so the planes are unchanged but carry half the passengers.

[pmprego]

One of the many reasons major brands. Prices are higher than Chinese made products is safety control and brand damage if anything would happen.

Samsung note 7: huge fiasco, huge loss but no one died (I think).

Zipp hookless wheels: clients start getting blowouts here and there, some die, major class action lawsuits start, criminal charges eventually emerge, zipp goes bankrupt and closes business. Does it seem likely?

By zipp, I could also add enve, huge brand giant and some others. The safety part has to assured by design.

One might want higher psi and consider the "low" psi of hookless a con of this technology but this is not a safety aspect.

Thats a good point though I would say that what I think is more likely is that these US based companies are ultimately held accountable if there is a lapse in safety. I wouldn't trust that the testing done necessary guarantees safety. Just look at Boeing.....allowed to do their own safety assessment and we all know what that led to.

Screw ups can happen. You test stuff and then release to the real world and you realize none of yours tests were good enough. But you immediately remove it when shit happens (see the roval rapide 1). If they were not removed by now it's because they are safe. Otherwise problems would have emerged by now.

Well the Rovals are quite another case actually. There's an extensive article on CyclingTips about it. Their solution was more like Boeing designing an airplane for 500 passengers but discovering it can only safely carry 250 passengers, then changing nothing but the passenger limit so the planes are unchanged but carry half the passengers.

Didn't they make it non tubeless approved? They didn't say why (only until rapide 2) but they didn't sell it tubeless. I really don't get the comparison.