Is Road Hookless dangerous?

[FlatlandClimber]

I am not asking if it is pointless because of limited tire choice or limited pressure.
The GP5000S TR has pretty much nullified the issue of limited tire choice for me, with it being an amazing, HL compatible tire.
I don't need more than 72psi on any of my bikes besides the TT bike, which is set up with narrow clinchers.
The sidewall slicing the sidewall is an issue. Although ENVE claim to have addressed it in the new 3.4 and 4.5 wheels (according to their marketing material).

If you run too high pressure or incompatible tires, it's obvious it's dangerous. We had the same discussion with running non-TL wheels tubelessly.

I am asking: is it dangerous when adhering to pressure, weight, and compatibility?

[req110]

I am tubeless fan. I took hookless wheelset not because of being hookless, but specs / price. I am ok with hook and hookless for my purpose and thats:

- TLR tires
- 65 psi is my max pressure, i am using 28mm tires. I can imagine using 30mm on rear next time.

As mentioned above, since GP 5000 S TR has been released, there is no point for me to use clinchers. These tires are amazing.

[warthog101]

I am asking: is it dangerous when adhering to pressure, weight, and compatibility?

That is exactly what the ETRTO guideline addresses it appears to me.
Compliant rims and tyres when used within the 5 bar pressure limit are within the specified parameters.

That would be a no it is not dangerous.

[FlatlandClimber]

That was my assumption too, but you can see how much dissident there is on this topic.
It's quite a claim to say these are not Save to ride, as this would imply some of the biggest Rim Manufacturers in the market are putting customers knowingly in unnecessary danger.

[warthog101]

Agreed. I am no lawyer but you would assume behaviour such as that could be potentially very costly in the event of injury caused by a blown tyre on a rim that was not safely designed.

Those parameters set by ETRTO must clearly have been tested as safe.

[TobinHatesYou]

Hookless was done solely to reduce manufacturing complexity and reduce cost. It has no benefit to the consumer. The arguement that it may improve aerodynamics is trivial. On a hooked rim, the concern of a blow-off due to pressure or cornerning is essentially non-existent. This is a differnt circumstance than a flat tire. I personally would not bother with hookless as I don't want to take any additional unnecessary risks. It also bothers me that companies charge the same or more for their new hookless version when the manufacturing cost is now significantly lower. The risk of your tire blowing off the rim is very real, and real enough that each manufacturer is careful to spell-out what is allowed on their wheel. Something to think about is whether in 5 years, they will even make your wheel and the tire approved for it.

They also charge more for electronic groupsets, when the manufacturing cost is significantly reduced..... especially at the shifters!

There'd be blood in the streets if people knew what this electronic stuff costs them to produce, versus what they charge.

If only products were priced solely according to BOM. Medicines? Nope. Phones? Nope. Cars? Nah. The pants you’re wearing right now? Nope.

[wheelsONfire]

People make it sound like the likelihood of the tire blowing off would be significantly higher. I just don't know if it's true...

It is!
Do some digging... some wheelbuilders might tell you...
Ofcourse those who are besserwissers here will argue differently, i don't care.
Most who have had this experience have had it due to "tire burps" and those happens more easy with hookless ( i don't mean to say it happens now and then, more that it may happen if you have unluck).
Even guys who have used tubulars have had tires torn off their rims and those are glued on.
I have used tubulars for 10 years atleast, not even near a tire coming off.
You are a smart guy so if you look at hooks and hookless rims, you can make up your own mind which tire most easy would come off if you had a tire burp.
I don't intend to debate here with anyone.
This is my opinion from my own experience and those who i have spoken to which have had this "issue".

[FlatlandClimber]

I didn't set out to just have my own opinion confirmed, but to really find an answer. I just crashed hard and look to not do it again.
I am not sure I understand what a tire burp is...

[warthog101]

Use the correct tyre at the correct pressure and it is not going to unseat and lose pressure.
Run a tyre at low pressure that is not etrto approved and you increase the chance. Run it on a rim that is not built to etrto specs and the chance is potentially further enhanced.

I note that Giant sell many of their road bikes with hookless wheels.
They are high volume sellers.
I ride with plenty who ride them.
Nope they aren't suddenly deflating.
Giant appear to have confidence in the hookless application.
As do Zipp and various other wheel builders.
I find it implausible that they are going to market a product with such a significant design fault that will make it suddenly deflate when used within design parameters.

[FlatlandClimber]

The other hookless applications like motorcycles and automotive all run lower PSIs where this isnt an issue. Road bikes are literally one of the most aggressive use cases for hookless wheels.

Aren't airplane tires hookless, too? They are like 200-300 PSI...
Not much cornering on those though

[warthog101]

100 psi in a truck tyre also.

[apr46]

It was a mistake to generalize since i wasnt thinking about truck and heavier duty tires, only about the examples offered in ENVEs explaination of hookless. Closed minded mistake on my part.

Realistically, not sure its useful to think about LT or truck tires where not only do you have metal beads you have very rigid sidewalls and significantly more structure.

Bike tubeless tires have neither metal beads and not even metal belts. I guess its all a way of saying it feels like more risk than gain for me to use a hookless rim where there is a hooked alternative at this point. I will likely feel differently in the future as consumers and shops come up the learning curve and its clearer when safety has been degraded by damage, improper installation or use outside of parameters.

[wheelsONfire]

It was a mistake to generalize since i wasnt thinking about truck and heavier duty tires, only about the examples offered in ENVEs explaination of hookless. Closed minded mistake on my part.

Realistically, not sure its useful to think about LT or truck tires where not only do you have metal beads you have very rigid sidewalls and significantly more structure.

Bike tubeless tires have neither metal beads and not even metal belts. I guess its all a way of saying it feels like more risk than gain for me to use a hookless rim where there is a hooked alternative at this point. I will likely feel differently in the future as consumers and shops come up the learning curve and its clearer when safety has been degraded by damage, improper installation or use outside of parameters.

A tire burp isn't just happening because of bad installation or faulty tire pressure.
Anyway, hooked is allowing a higher pressure which is not a bad thing.
It's safer since there will always be those who notice they like a bit higher pressure better.
Reverse this, what is the problem with a hooked design over a hookless?

Who benefit mostly of skipping the bead hook?

I think that once or if something happenes to those who refuse to understand that this can happen, they will think one more time.
To say that it can't happen because it's tested and if we keep iside parameters you are 100% safe. A hooked design is still a safer bet.
But each to his own.

[warthog101]

I see it that hookless has some advantages in a stronger bead area of the rim given more material and better carbon layup.
Less likely to suffer terminal damage in the event of rim strike.
It seems plausible that given more material is on the bead area the rim is also less apt to suffer heat damage in rim brake use.

Those manufacturers who have invested the time and energy in producing and selling hookless rim designs have potentially plenty to lose in litigation should it be proven they have marketed an unsafe design.
It stands to reason they are therefore confident it is not flawed or dangerous when used within their specified parameters.
Those parameters are in no way restrictive for my use.
Yes use what you like but there is significant evidence they are safe and companies have investigated significant resources manufacturing and marketing them which would indicate they are confident they are also.

[req110]

This topic should be renamed from clickbait type "Is Road Hookless really dangerous?" to normal "Is Road Hookless dangerous at all?"