WTO60 vs CLX64 vs LB AR55, rim brake, your choice?

[NoPasaran]

I am still undecided on wheels for my DuraAce 9100 RIM BRAKE S-Works SL6.
I like deep rims, minimum 50mm.

I ride basically flat surfaces, undulating, no more than 6-7% for short periods, never in rain.
I use exclusively 25mm GP5000 clinchers (=with tubes).
I am also a pretty heavy dude (85kg).

In a separate thread I asked about Campa WTO 60 vs Parcours Passista.
Only got two answers but both suggested WTO 60.

Now I am deciding between:
LB Falcon Pro AR55
Campa WTO 60.
Roval CLX64.

Rovals:
- most expensive
- the deepest
- over 29mm wide (29.9?)
- will fit on my bike (I run CL50 now).

WTO 60:
- several hundred bucks cheaper (I can buy them with a 20% discount)
- weight is probably similar to CLX64 (1550g).

LB AR55:
- the cheapest (I would order with DT240EXP),
- potentially the lightest as well
- in-between depth but wide and blunt for stability

I like AR 55 because they are 30mm external, 28mm at brake track and 21mm internal.
So, I guess, very similar to my current CL50, which are 20.7mm internal and 29.4mm external, not sure about width at the brake track.
I think AR55 would fit my DuraAce 9100 brakes with full height SwissStop FlashPro Yellow pads?

WTO60 are 19mm internal and 26.5mm external.

I would like to stick to the 105% rule and have as aerodynamic wheel-tyre combo as possible.
It seems WTO 60 would be less aero than LB AR55 because of narrower external width (26.5 vs 30mm), given my choice of 25mm GP5000 tires.

What would you choose?

[nickf]

All my bikes except one are now running far east wheels. 2 with farsports and one with BTLOS. I will probably never buy a big brand wheel ever again. I personally don't see the value unless the warranty makes you sleep better at night. Even with LB you can usually just about buy 2 sets of wheels for the price of one set of the big brands.

[NoPasaran]

All my bikes except one are now running far east wheels. 2 with farsports and one with BTLOS. I will probably never buy a big brand wheel ever again. I personally don't see the value unless the warranty makes you sleep better at night. Even with LB you can usually just about buy 2 sets of wheels for the price of one set of the big brands.

That is true, and that is why I consider LB wheels, I could not read through the whole 100+ pages on the LB thread, no time, but from what I read the owners seem to be happy.
I like Rovals because they would match my Tarmac brand-wise, and they are real deep, but yes, very expensive.
I like WTOs for depth but worry about narrowness, imho no use buying deep wheels if they are not aerodynamic.
On my current CL50s the 25mm GT5000 sit flush with the rim, but it is a wider rim internally and externally compared to WTO 60.

LB has also 65mm rear rimbrake rim, but it is only 26mm wide, I would love to have stacked depth as I like the looks, but not sure if that rim is too narrow (25.85mm external, 18.35mm internal), I understand the front wheel is more important in terms of aero and stability, but still..

ah, correction, R65 are 28.1mm max external and 25.85mm at brake track, so could be an option for the rear wheel together with AR55 front wheel.

[C36]

I would factor one extra element, stiffness, particularly for your weight.
- WTO 60 will be the stiffest of your selection: roughly 50N/mm at the rear
- Roval, I don't have data on the CLX64 but the CLX50 sits at 40 (-20% compared to WTO!) and none of the roval wheels excell in stiffness (at or just below average)
- LB all the stiffness tests they shared show a low 40N/mm at the rear wheel, very average and that was with better geometry hubs than the DT240
- An option you may want to wait for are the upcoming new Hyper, released the 1st july, I guess they will be wider and they have a proven very solid stiffness (50Nmm) and lighter (current 50mm are 1320g, 65mm 1450g)

Regarding your 105 and aero questions, how windy is your place? wider Roval will handle better in x-wind, with low yaw angles, a "narrow" wheel and "narrow" tire will always be faster.

[rollinslow]

Easy choice, Bora WTO 60.

[NoPasaran]

I would factor one extra element, stiffness, particularly for your weight.
- WTO 60 will be the stiffest of your selection: roughly 50N/mm at the rear
- Roval, I don't have data on the CLX64 but the CLX50 sits at 40 (-20% compared to WTO!) and none of the roval wheels excell in stiffness (at or just below average)
- LB all the stiffness tests they shared show a low 40N/mm at the rear wheel, very average and that was with better geometry hubs than the DT240
- An option you may want to wait for are the upcoming new Hyper, released the 1st july, I guess they will be wider and they have a proven very solid stiffness (50Nmm) and lighter (current 50mm are 1320g, 65mm 1450g)

Regarding your 105 and aero questions, how windy is your place? wider Roval will handle better in x-wind, with low yaw angles, a "narrow" wheel and "narrow" tire will always be faster.

thank you for a detailed reply!

Just to expand on my person I do not race, I am cycling for my own pleasure, I do not even stand on the pedals, I push myself up hills sitting on a bike.

I have never noticed lack of stiffness in my Roval CL 50s, never any brake rubbing, I also had wheels checked after 2500km and they were in spec.

If I order the LB AR55, I would take mixer spokes on the rear, so the spokes on the drive side would be a bit thicker/stronger (CX Ray + CX Sprint) for better power transfer.

I ride next to a lake or along open fields in the countryside, sometimes there are winds that push my 50mm front wheel off line. That is why I sought wider front rim would handle better in side winds (when Roval released 35mm wide CLX Rapide they stated it handled 25% better than CLX50 in cross winds).

Does the above change anything in your suggestion?

I am still not sure about WTO 60, I mean 26mm wide, 19mm internal and I am putting 25mm tires on it which will expand, I am just not sure if they will expand way beyond the 26mm rim in effect violating 105% rule and making wheel/tire combo less aero and less stable in x-wind and at angles.

Hyper?
Is this a new rim from LB?
I am not sure how my wider my rim-brake Tarmac SL6 can take.

[NoPasaran]

Easy choice, Bora WTO 60.

But why is it an easy choice?
Do you have experience with WTO60 rimbrake wheels?
Have you fit 25mm tires on WTO60 and can tell me if they baloon beyond max rim width?

I haven't heard anything bad about WTO60s, but I also haven't heard anything bad about LBs.
I cannot check them anywhere and I do not have friends who run any of these wheels.
Forum is the only way for me to gather some info from those who have used these wheels.

[rollinslow]

Easy choice, Bora WTO 60.

But why is it an easy choice?
Do you have experience with WTO60 rimbrake wheels?
Have you fit 25mm tires on WTO60 and can tell me if they baloon beyond max rim width?

I haven't heard anything bad about WTO60s, but I also haven't heard anything bad about LBs.
I cannot check them anywhere and I do not have friends who run any of these wheels.
Forum is the only way for me to gather some info from those who have used these wheels.

Yes, I own the 45's in rim brake and the 60's in disc brake. Campy is widely regarded as making very high quality hubs, high quality carbon layup, no need for rim tape since the rim bed is all carbon, cross winds on the 60's have been good, both sets are stiff. I also have the 60's running tubeless and they were easy to setup. The 25mm tire GP5k measures around 26mm on those rims.

[dadaist]

I will probably never buy a big brand wheel ever again. I personally don't see the value unless the warranty makes you sleep better at night. Even with LB you can usually just about buy 2 sets of wheels for the price of one set of the big brands.

A matter of perspective: The problem I see with those China brands for wheels is liability. If Campa/Zipp/whatever big brand sells wheels in the US, and the wheels systematically fail, they need to be prepared for law suits, damages going into millions of USD to be paid to injured consumers due to badly designed wheels. So, a big, western brand (including those from Taiwan and Japan) will keep this in consideration in their wheel design and general operation.

If some chinese wheels systematically fail, the owners will just rebrand the company. Good luck getting any damages paid from them. I'm not talking about getting a not-so-nice wheel replaced on warranty, I'm talking about severe injuries from bad engineering.

For rim brakes, this is even more a concern due to the thermal stress on the rims.

I've tried to find a range of different tests and opinions on thermal durability of carbon wheels, and Fulcrum/Campa along with Zipp are always among the best performers in all tests that I saw. That's why I personally would only buy carbon wheels from these companies. Not saying that other brands are not able to keep up, but I've seen tests from Tour Magazin, comments from Luescher, this Chinese wheel test and others that all have Campa/Zipp among top performers. Fulcrum Wind 40 wheels can be bought for less than 1000 USD a set sometimes. How much cheaper or better would chinese wheels really be? 200 bucks? 50g less weight? In this comparison, I don't really se the reason to pick a chinese brand with zero legal liability.

Of course, others would hope that it's all good and save those 200 bucks and 50 grams.

[jlok]

Man, just get the LB ok? You opened two threads and your sayings are all for the LB. You should have gained enough support now. Go ahead for the LB I'd say.

P.s. I have both LB and Campy wheels for different purposes. I'd choose Bora in this case bcos I'd pair it with 25mm GP5000 and the Bora sings in flat high speed. The Bora is also designed as a system so the hubs and rims are matched. LB wheels are Lego but you can still pay a bit more to have the rims customized if you know what you're doing.

For rough surfaces, I bring out my WR50 flyweight. They are 50% cheaper and I'm happy to abuse them. The tires are 29.5mm wide and they are much more stable when going down hill (side note: my bike is designed around 28mm tires).

[Morkai]

I have Bora WTO 60 on Tarmac SL6: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... yiB2SKRJRk

Front: 704 g, Schwalbe Pro One TLE, 25 mm, 7562 km, 4.8 bar measures 26.7 mm (a little over 25 mm when brand new)
Rear: 886 g, Schwalbe Pro One TLE, 28 mm, 3687 km, 5 bar measures 28.5 mm
Total: 1590 g (no tape and valves)

Very good dry braking. Delayed and requiring more force when wet.

Very good crosswind handling (30 km/h avg, x2 gusts). Not as good as Bike Ahead Composites biturboRoad (fat six-spoke 34mm, basically unaffected) but MUCH better than Hunt 50 Carbon Aero Disc (my in-season weight is 62 kg).

I've hit massive pot-holes at speed at least three times (slipped handlebars, ejected bidons) and they are still true.

Current price with shipping is 1772 €.
If I were to buy LB AR55 with DT250: 1220.59 (wheels with 5 year warranty) + 120.92 (cheaper shipping) + 46.95 (handling fee) = 1388.46 + 4.7% (customs duty for bike parts from China to my country) + 23% (VAT) = 1788 €.

[Poddle]

I agree with the points dadaist makes above.

I'm sure Winspace etc. wheels are as good as many of the major brands when they are working well however in the event one of my wheels fail due to a manufacturing error, it's good to know there is a process by which I can lean on the manufacturer and a realistic prospect of damages being paid. And I'm just not convinced this exists with many of the Chinese brands.

Plus, Winspace et al are not that much cheaper than the bigger brands after shipping etc., and certainly not much cheaper than other direct-to-consumer brands like Hunt, Scribe etc.

[rides4beer]

As far as stiffness goes, I'm 84kg and a decent sprinter, my LB AR56s have no discernible flex. I have the 240EXP hubs and went for the stiffer spoke setup on the rear. FYI, the EXP hubs are stiffer than the previous 240s.

[smokva]

I have WTO 60 and wouldn't change them for anything. They are stiff and strong....I can't flex them with my 115 kg and 1300 W sprints.
I ride them with GP5000 which are marked as 23 mm by Conti (measure arround 25 on the wto rim) which is the widest that i need.
Like other have said....Campagnolo hubs are still made with cup nad cones (angular bearing) which give them smoothness and servicability that can't be rivaled by using cartridge bearings.
Campagnolo wheels are built fantastic, I haven't heard about a single Campagnolo wheel coming drasticly out of true without being hit or damaged.
I believe that Campagnolo has best carbon technology for bicycle parts....just look at the video of their crankarms being cut to inspect how it is made.
I don't believe in hype that wider than wto is better...just check what is being used on pista and what is used for hour record...

[Mocs123]

I'm not saying wider is or isn't better, but comparing what is being used for hour record attempts isn't really an apples to apples comparison. First off they are on a perfectly smooth surface. Secondly they are cycling at extreme speeds where aero is king over all else - moreso than it is to us mere mortals.

23mm tires are getting harder and harder to find so asking for a rim optimized for a 25mm tire isn't asking too much.