Cheap (China Direct) vs Mid Tier vs Premium Carbon Rims

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RyanH
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by RyanH

So, I'm curious for feedback from those that own similarly built wheels in two or more of these categories. @Yoln got me thinking that a rim isn't a commodity and can be the heart of the wheel and the bicycle when he mentioned that his WTO ride better than his lighter Lightbicycle/Carbon Ti wheels.

So, if one is looking to build a wheelset with Sapim CX ray and Carbon Ti and you were looking at the similar 360g rims from Lightbicycle, Farsports (~$150), Duke (€300), Mcfk(€500), Zipp 353 ($1000?) and Enve 3.4 AR ($1000?) (these are +30g), is there going to be an appreciable ride difference?

I've ridden/owned close to 30 different wheelsets, most of them tubular and a lot of them build around DT swiss hubs and my inclination is that the rims are a big factor in how well a wheel rides. I disliked how Enve wheels rode as they seemed to feel unstable, lacked a gyroscopic balancing effect. My favorite wheels are my Bontrager XXX 2 which have to be on the heavy side for rims since they come in at 1180g (I think similarly built Enve 2.2 are sub 1100g). Campy Bora 35 wheels are a close second.

I don't know why certain wheels perform better than others which is something I want to get an idea of before I buy my next wheelset.

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Multebear
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by Multebear

RyanH wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:40 pm
I've ridden/owned close to 30 different wheelsets, most of them tubular and a lot of them build around DT swiss hubs and my inclination is that the rims are a big factor in how well a wheel rides. I disliked how Enve wheels rode as they seemed to feel unstable, lacked a gyroscopic balancing effect. My favorite wheels are my Bontrager XXX 2 which have to be on the heavy side for rims since they come in at 1180g (I think similarly built Enve 2.2 are sub 1100g). Campy Bora 35 wheels are a close second.
I have 7 wheelset, that all are in rotation on my bike. I've laced all of them myself. 5 alu and 2 carbon. Summerroad, winterroad, gravel, fast summerroad etc. I ride them with a variety of different tires. GP 5000, 4Seasons, Vittoria Corsa, and several different gravel/cx tires. I don´t feel any difference at all between any of them. Obviously I notice that some of them are more sensitive to crosswinds. And some of them are faster. But to say I feel a difference other than that, would be an overstatement when it comes to rims.

That said, I feel a difference between hubs and tires. Some hubs engage faster, more firm and have a different sound. And when it comes to tires there is a difference how they ride as well. But feeling a difference between rims, I doubt all else being equal many ppl would.

My two carbonwheels are Farstports. And they ride very well. Maybe because I only use them in the summer with 23 mm light fast tires. I've tried Zipp wheels with similar specs as my Farsports. But I didn´t feel any difference there. Because of this, I´ve always focused on hubs rather than rims. If the rim is fairly aero, and of fair quality like Farsports, I couldn´t ask for more, and I really doubt I would get more with Zipp, Enve, Bontrager etc.

RyanH
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by RyanH

When you say some of them are faster, I think that's what I'm getting at. I don't think the sensation of speed is due to these wheels being objectively more aerodynamic, I think they transfer vibrations differently which affect our sensation of speed. I call it a gliding sensation.

With the same tires, my Bontrager XXX 2 (28mm deep) feel as fast as Enve 4.5, Enve 2.2, Campy Boras, Reynolds 46 Aero and Corima MCC 47. But, I have a long list of wheels that don't feel fast and some of them are more aerodynamic (Zipp 404 may be one IIRC).

alanyu
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by alanyu

As a physics researcher I never feel faster changing from 38 to 50 and even to 56 carbon wheelset, but in a solo ride with the same route, position, etc., the PM and speed sensor tell me the 56 one is the fastest.

What I can feel is the stiffness, acceleration, stability and comfort, also braking if rim brake.

Nowadays rim stiffness is no more issue, and the wheel stiffness is more related to the geometry of a hub and the spokes. I would rate hub geometry at the first position (Campy hub vs CT hub), and spoke stiffness × counts second.

Acceleration is a combination of the wheel stiffness and the rotational weight. Again here hub weight is not important. IME super light rim but relatively low stiffness wheel accelerates well under low to mid output, while averaged weight rim but good stiffness wheel sprints well out of saddle.

Cross wind) stablity is determined by the cross section of the combination of the tire and rim. Since mine is rim brake, OD is limited to be less than 29, I prefer the cross section of LB AR56 and XXX, wide curved V shape, based on my experience. Though they are kinda unstable at extremely low yaw, they perform so good at mid to high yaw.

Comfort depands a lot on tire and a wider ID rim has an advantage.

The best braking I've ridden is a beta one from a Chinese brand, better than Zipp and Farsports, even better than the alu rim (Shimano UT) in a rainy day, but it simply eats pads faster than any other rims.

Rim quality itself, quite a lot Chinese ones are good, but ENVE is junk, at least two years ago.

extrusionedwin
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by extrusionedwin

the carbonwheel is made with 3 parts:
1.0rim,
2.spokes and
3.hub.
All the main brand use the famous spokes as Sapim or DT, and
for the hub are more options, from DT swiss 240 , ck r45 , extralite, carbo ti, white industry ect.
there are for low cost and high perfomance like token, novatec, bitex and more

so the price start from 70usd like bitex, and the most expensive like ck r45 or dt swiss 180 600usd,

the rim, design comes from inner width 19 to the new 21mm or 23mm and outer width from 26 to 33mm

if we know the cost, all the hub, and the spokes, the rim is the key to see the real value for a carbonwheel,

so it is real cheaper chinese carbonwheel bad? it is good the zipp or LW expensible dreaming wheel good?

no, no , all is not rigth.

the true of all, you have to test all the carbonwheels, and you will fell the difference, but really?

I already test the same road, same time, same 200watts, same distances, with

zipp 303, LW, enve, roval clx32, dt prc 1100, fulcum zero, vision metron 45sl, salukivi, hunt, token, farsports, vortex, giant, slr0, cadex seriesetc.

the difference time is only 30 seconds/10secs +-

for me my pocket money is more important, so I will go for the cheaper carbonwheel now.

bobones
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by bobones

For wheels of the same depth, width, weight and geometry I don't think you would be able to feel the difference between some exotic brand with boutique hubs and ordinary chinese rims with budget hubs that have been competently built. I for one did not find 60 mm WTOs felt significantly different to $600 50 mm ICAN carbon rims on Novatech hubs with CX-Ray spokes. If anything, the WTOs perhaps feel a little more sluggish because they're heavier. Premium wheels may have better rim braking sufaces, more durable hubs and nice appearance, but there's a lot of placebo and emperor's new clothes when it comes to wheels imo.

Nickldn
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by Nickldn

bobones wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:03 pm
For wheels of the same depth, width, weight and geometry I don't think you would be able to feel the difference between some exotic brand with boutique hubs and ordinary chinese rims with budget hubs that have been competently built. I for one did not find 60 mm WTOs felt significantly different to $600 50 mm ICAN carbon rims on Novatech hubs with CX-Ray spokes. If anything, the WTOs perhaps feel a little more sluggish because they're heavier. Premium wheels may have better rim braking sufaces, more durable hubs and nice appearance, but there's a lot of placebo and emperor's new clothes when it comes to wheels imo.
I have to say the CULT bearings in the WTOs do feel smoother and more refined than steel bearings. I don't for a moment think this means you'll get a better time going up the road on CULT bearings, or they'll last a lot longer, but I can feel the quality. Is it worth paying for? That's a personal decision.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

kode54
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by kode54

Better bearings in a Novatec or Bitex hub than what's in DT Swiss...would make the Novatec or Bitex roll better for less money?
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

^Depend.
If the shell is up to spec then yes.
But I had a Novatec hub that has slightly undersized bearing seat on one side. It make bearing feel gritty and wear out fast.
Normally you wouldn't get this unlucky though.

RyanH
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by RyanH

So, would people go as far as saying alloy rims feel identical to carbon rims?

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by DHG01

I would tend to think that carbon rims are stiffer, including vertically. My impression is that aluminum rims require more trueing - which is due to vertical flex of the rim. For that same reason, the might also feel more comfortable. I do think there is a difference between carbon and alu rims - not as much as on the frame, but certainly a difference.

Certainly haven't tested as many wheels as you, but I ve found 4.5s+CK R45 one of the best I ve tried. The feeling I get is as if the bike were on rails. Similar depth Schmolke TLO 45 don't feel anywhere as stiff.
2.2 are ver light, but feel wobbly; on my steel Triebwerk they will easily rub the brake pads; not necessarily so on a SuperSix.
DA C40 has been a very pleasant surprise; similar to the 4.5s without all the noise; very stiff when on your feet and great feeling of control when braking hard. The will feel heavier than the 2.2.

All rim and tubular.

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by gorkypl

It may sound heretic, but I went from decent quality wheels laced on aluminum Dt Swiss R460 rims to Bora WTO 45 and I did not feel huge difference. Yes, Boras are stiffer and probably keep speed better, but I end up around the same position during group rides - wheels have not transformed my performance. I bought Boras mainly for the looks, so I'm not disappointed, but outside top level competition I'd say it's mostly about the looks.

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Nickldn
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by Nickldn

gorkypl wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:12 pm
It may sound heretic, but I went from decent quality wheels laced on aluminum Dt Swiss R460 rims to Bora WTO 45 and I did not feel huge difference. Yes, Boras are stiffer and probably keep speed better, but I end up around the same position during group rides - wheels have not transformed my performance. I bought Boras mainly for the looks, so I'm not disappointed, but outside top level competition I'd say it's mostly about the looks.
Wheels are probably the most meaningful aero upgrade you can buy. But you have to go deeper than 45mm........
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

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LouisN
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by LouisN

Hubs and geometry is the main component of how a wheel will ride and feel, and, at the end how it will perform. It's the structure where all the wheel geometry is based. Rims are a pretty basic structure, unless done with poor QC, and you won't find big REAL (erase everything marketing here) differences there. Most overrated bike part IMO.

In my opinion,
RyanH wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:35 pm
So, would people go as far as saying alloy rims feel identical to carbon rims?
Although carbon is a stiffer material, all the carbon rim wheels I used feel more comfortable than my alloy rim wheels (alll of them tubular, my alloy rims are kinlin TB20 and HED Belgium): FFWD F6R 60 mm, Flybike 56 mm X 27 Flybike 40 mm X 27, Farsports 38 mm X 25.
I build all my wheels, and I note some differences in rim weight distribution, mostly on my 56 mm wheels. I'll address this with golf tape.
My 40 mm wheels are my all round wheels, with approx. 30 000 km on them (DA 9000 hubs), and still roll like new wheels. I'l probably build a new rear rim since the brake track is deeply grooved. I wouldn't say they're stiff wheels but they give me nice sensations, are comfortable to ride on all terrain, and performing pretty well.
I tried Enve some Smart 3.4 wheels from a friend. They feel more bulky and stiff than my wheels (with more grippy brake track) but not that noticeable.
Louis :)

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pkaro
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by pkaro

Nickldn wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:11 am
gorkypl wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:12 pm
It may sound heretic, but I went from decent quality wheels laced on aluminum Dt Swiss R460 rims to Bora WTO 45 and I did not feel huge difference. Yes, Boras are stiffer and probably keep speed better, but I end up around the same position during group rides - wheels have not transformed my performance. I bought Boras mainly for the looks, so I'm not disappointed, but outside top level competition I'd say it's mostly about the looks.
Wheels are probably the most meaningful aero upgrade you can buy. But you have to go deeper than 45mm........
I would argue, based on windtunnel results, that the biggest aero gains are from moving from shallow wheels to 45 mm, after that the curve really begins to flatten off for anything other than extreme yaw angles. See for example the comparison of the different Swissside wheel depths: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0015/ ... 2923084637

Unforunately they don't include a very shallow rim to provide baseline, but as you can see, head-on there is barely a lick of difference between all rim depths, and you have to go to well over 10 degrees of yaw to really distinguish 625s from 800s...

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