Spokes for LB Build?!

[Luften]

I'm looking to order a set of LB AR465 rim brake wheels (the new X-Flow shape), built with Carbon-Ti hubs. What spokes would be best between these options?

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1) CX-Ray spokes everywhere (i.e. normal build option). These come out pretty light at 1294g with the flyweight rim.

2) CX-Super spokes everywhere. This would save about 40g in 20/24 spoke count, so 1254g total. They said the wheels would be stiffer and stronger as well, which really surprised me as it's a lighter spoke (the only downside they said would be the price is more expensive which I'm ok with).

3) CX-Ray everywhere except for CX-Sprint on the rear drive side. This is one of their normal options, total weight comes to 1307g, They said it adds a lot of stiffness to the rear wheel.

4) A custom build using carbon spokes. These would have to be on different hubs so not the Carbon-Ti ones.

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What's best? Would the CX-Super build really be stiffer? Are there any downsides to it aside from the increase in price?

Thanks

[Klaster_1]

4) A custom build using carbon spokes. These would have to be on different hubs so not the Carbon-Ti ones.

Are CF spokes a new option LB offers or you meant "built not by LB"? Any ideas about the weight?

[Marin]

You need to tell us about your weight, riding style and intended use.

[Luften]

78-80kgs, road riding, dry weather, 325 ftp, 1350 for 5s. Intended use would be general road riding and training. I might do a race on them, but probably more likely to stay on my tubs for those. Generally I'm quite light on my equipment as well (clean often, careful around potholes, etc.).

[alcatraz]

The carbon spokes would likely make the stiffer wheel, but I don't think you can find any spokes sold in a low quantity in the lengths you need.

As for the steel spokes it basically comes down to performance. How much do you want?

I've seen graphs too showing some of these 3gr spokes like super cx or megalite having less stretch than 4gr spokes, made with a material called something else. I am skeptical however. One lazy argument is, if they are so great, why aren't the big brands using them? Most builders would likely advise to treat them as steel spokes like any other. A higher spoke count 3gr spoke can outperform a lower spoke count 4gr etc. So they might serve as an option, perhaps.

[Hexsense]

Option 3 sound appropriate for me.
Just a few gram extra woth the peace of mind that your wheel is built stiff. I rate stiffness over a few grams of weight.

[Luften]

One lazy argument is, if they are so great, why aren't the big brands using them? Most builders would likely advise to treat them as steel spokes like any other. A higher spoke count 3gr spoke can outperform a lower spoke count 4gr etc. So they might serve as an option, perhaps.

I think the reason is the cost increase. On a relative basis vs the CX-Rays I think it's quite a bit. Also different sized nipples as the spokes are smaller guage.

Spoke count would be the same: 20/24.

[Luften]

Option 3 sound appropriate for me.
Just a few gram extra woth the peace of mind that your wheel is built stiff. I rate stiffness over a few grams of weight.

The bit I'm confused about is why the lighter spoke is stiffer, the middle weight spoke is less stiff, and then the heavier spoke is stiffer again.

CX Super <-> CX Ray <-> CX Sprint
Lightest <-> Middle <-> Bit heavier
Siffer <-> Less Stiff <-> Stiffer again

What's going on?

[Hexsense]

It's actually stiffer because of the combination. Heavier spoke on DS make tension more balance.
Normally, you have very high DS spoke tension and low NDS tension due to bracing angle difference.
So, make DS spoke thicker gauge allow NDS spoke to run higher spoke tension (than it's normally very low tension) make it stiffer.

[pdlpsher1]

CX-Super will be less stiff than CX-Ray. The stiffness of a spoke is dependent upon the spoke's cross section area regardless of what type of steel is used. All steel alloys have the same modulus of elasticity. The same goes for aluminum alloys.

For your weight and power output you'll be taking a risk with 20/24 drillings regardless of the spoke used. I'd recommend 24/28 CX-Ray all-around for the best performance/weight. I don't know if Carbon-Ti comes in a 24/28 drilling.

What are you riding now? Are you experiencing any problems?

Some spoke designs (Campy's 2:1 and Shimano's Opti-Bal) will create a stiffer and more durable rear wheel. For example Campy's Bora's 21-spoke rear wheel is super stiff and reliable because the 7 NDS spokes are under very high tension. If you truly want the lightest and stiffest LB wheelset possible try to find a rear hub in a 2:1 drilling either in a 21 or 24 hole drilling.

[Luften]

CX-Super will be less stiff than CX-Ray. The stiffness of a spoke is dependent upon the spoke's cross section area regardless of what type of steel is used. All steel alloys have the same modulus of elasticity. The same goes for aluminum alloys.

I found this article: https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... l-strength. So doing some quick calcs:

CX-Ray: 2.2x0.9mm and 1600 N/mm2 = 3168
CX-Sprint: 2.25x1.25mm and 1430 N/mm2 = 4022
and
CX-Super: 2.1x0.75mm and 1980 N/mm2 = 3119

So the CX-Super is the least stiff, but basically the same as the CX-Rays, and the CX-Sprint is much stiffer. Is this a correct analysis?

Would the best then be to do CX-Sprint for the rear DS and CX-Super everywhere else? It might be messy with two different nipple types on the same wheel though.

[Luften]

What are you riding now? Are you experiencing any problems?

Some spoke designs (Campy's 2:1 and Shimano's Opti-Bal) will create a stiffer and more durable rear wheel. For example Campy's Bora's 21-spoke rear wheel is super stiff and reliable because the 7 NDS spokes are under very high tension. If you truly want the lightest and stiffest LB wheelset possible try to find a rear hub in a 2:1 drilling either in a 21 or 24 hole drilling.

Bora WTO 33s. No problems with them, I was just thinking to go wider (and maybe drop some weight plus get some extra depth at the same time).

2:1 would be with an ExtraLite hub, but don't the rims have to be made to match as well? I'm not sure that the X-Flow will be compatible, and then in terms of hubs it's ExtraLite vs Carbon-Ti....?

[pdlpsher1]

Dave is using the ultimate yield strength which is totally irrelevant. Spokes don’t fail in yield. They fail under fatigue. What’s relevant for our discussion is the stiffness of the spoke. The greater the cross section, the greater the stiffness. The greater the stiffness, the smaller the range of spoke tension changes while riding with everything being equal. The smaller the range of spoke tension while riding the more durable the spoke, nipple, and rim will be.

X-flow is fine with 2:1. The only caveat is that you’re probably limited to a single hole count. I assume that’s 24. So you could have 8 on the NDS abs 16 on the DS. LB will reprogram the CNC drilling machine to angle 8 spoke holes toward the NDS and 16 towards the DS, instead of the normal 12 towards the NDS and 12 towards the DS.

Honestly if you’re on the WTO now it would be hard to find another wheelset that’s substantially better overall.


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[Luften]

Ah makes sense on the spokes and stiffness now. Thanks. I guess CX-Ray/CX-Sprint combo is best then. I'll check re 2:1.

Yeah the WTOs are good wheels. I've been very happy with them tbh. The thinking here was:

(a) To go wider. Currently the Corsas tires on the WTO measure to about 27.5mm, versus the rim which is 26mm wide. The LB rims are 28-30mm wide, so likely a better blend tire->rim. They're a bit wider internal, 21mm vs 19mm, so perhaps the tire would measure 28mm mounted but that would put it perfectly in line with the brake track. I recently moved to the wider Corsas from 26mm (measured) Veloflex for the extra grip from a wider tire, and I want to stay with the wider setup.

(b) Deeper and lighter. 46.5mm and ~1300g for the LB, versus 33mm and 1415g for the WTOs

(c) Maybe there's something to the X-Flow shape, I don't know for sure as there's not really enough data out there, but I like the concept and the look. Generally these undulating shapes are reported to help with stability, if nothing else.

[alcatraz]

How can cx-super have a strength of 1980 N/mm2? Sure about that?

That's one heck of a leap in steel strength. I'd be skeptical of such claims.