NEW GP5000S TR

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TribesMan
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:51 pm

by TribesMan

In my view the changes to the 5000s TR compared to 5000 TL make complete sense.
Having more protection at the sidewall and a bit less under the thread is a good solution for tubeless.

Most of the punctures on the thread area will be easily sealed by the sealant anyway. So why bother putting "extra" protection under the thread?
Having more protection uner the thread makes sense for tube type tires, where even the tiniest of needles can stop you on the road, but not for tubeless.

On the other hand, most of the damage to the side wall are cuts which are very hard to seal, so having a bit more "meaty" sidewalls should help with that.

And people here arguing the "drag" is too high... seriously? 1.8W per pair, at 45kph compared to "Turbo Cottons" is a big issue for you?!?
You must be joking...

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FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

It is not a *big* issue.
It is just not really a step up in terms of performance. The expectation was a "new Corsa Speed" with additional durability, and that wasn't delivered.
Also, I find it funny how 2W on tires are completely irrelevant, but 2W in weight are a big deal to most people on this forum.
I guess most people on this forum would agree, that 600g saving on a bike is a big deal (like 600g lighter wheels, or frame).
That's 2W saved on Alpe d'Huez, Passo dello Stelvio or Mont Ventoux:
Image Image
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Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
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aeroisnteverything
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:37 am

Based on the thinness of the new tread I estimate the new tire will have 50% of the wear life of the old.
Proof will be in the riding, but I don't see why that should be the case. Based on BRR article, the thread is actually the same thickness. But there is one less layer of casing under the thread and the lining is different. That's why it feels thinner. These changes should not affect mileage to the end of thread wear indicators, however, since the compound is the same and the thread thickness is the same. What will be interesting is "real world" puncture experience. Is thinner casing under the thread going to make these more prone to cuts and punctures that the sealant cannot handle? Time will tell.

But Conti's durability is a Good Thing from every perspecive I can think of: it's wallet friendly, environmentally friendly, and means less time spent on bike maintenance. What's not to like?

tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

TribesMan wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:19 am
In my view the changes to the 5000s TR compared to 5000 TL make complete sense.
Having more protection at the sidewall and a bit less under the thread is a good solution for tubeless.

Most of the punctures on the thread area will be easily sealed by the sealant anyway. So why bother putting "extra" protection under the thread?
Having more protection uner the thread makes sense for tube type tires, where even the tiniest of needles can stop you on the road, but not for tubeless.

On the other hand, most of the damage to the side wall are cuts which are very hard to seal, so having a bit more "meaty" sidewalls should help with that.

And people here arguing the "drag" is too high... seriously? 1.8W per pair, at 45kph compared to "Turbo Cottons" is a big issue for you?!?
You must be joking...
I agree with this.
The rolling performance of "good" tires is at a level where the practical differences are very small. It's still relevant to racing and events against the clock of course.

Grip, durability, puncture resistance and ease of use are also important to most users (including those who race!), but they tend to be much harder to quantify so it's easy to be focused on rolling performance from the testing that is done by the likes of AC and BRR - that also has its limitations as it's not quite a replication of most real-world use (rough/bumpy surfaces).

Conti's claimed 20% reduction is all the more strange because they know about the high-quality testing done by AC/BRR - the 20% seems way off, but how did they measure that? Given the casing changes and weight reduction, a 20% drop seems plausible, but that's not what the independent testing indicates. The smaller size must be taken into account, but I don't see it making up the 20% difference.

TribesMan
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:51 pm

by TribesMan

Maybe they (Conti) found an operating point in which old tires were very inefficient, and the new ones perform much better there.
But AC/BRR test the tires at a different operating points, not showing those gains... After all this is marketing...

Still AC tests show 5% improvement in RR compared to 5000 TL. And it is lighter. And funny enough half of the peloton chose to use this tires, since they were introduced... Its not all black. Cheer up everyone.

Mocs123
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 9:19 pm

by Mocs123

I agree about the marketing. Perhaps the TR is faster on rougher roads?

I also agree about it being disapointing we didn't get the 20% reductction in RR we all thought we would see, but we it's still the fastest tubeless tire out there that is durable enough for everyday use (I guess time will tell on that one). Are there faster tires - yes, but they are only for race or TT use and not durable enough or long lasting enough for day to day use.
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FlatlandClimber
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by FlatlandClimber

tjvirden wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:16 pm
Conti's claimed 20% reduction is all the more strange because they know about the high-quality testing done by AC/BRR - the 20% seems way off, but how did they measure that?
As I said, they tested it on a metal drum, albeit one with a larger diameter than the one used by BRR. And yes, Conti's team is well aware of BRR's testing and their procedures and on a podcast, a Co to rep was hopeful it would beat out the Corsa Speed...
Something between their testing and production went wrong ...
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

FlatlandClimber
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by FlatlandClimber

Mocs123 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:05 pm

I also agree about it being disapointing we didn't get the 20% reductction in RR we all thought we would see, but we it's still the fastest tubeless tire out there that is durable enough for everyday use (I guess time will tell on that one). Are there faster tires - yes, but they are only for race or TT use and not durable enough or long lasting enough for day to day use.
We only have these two tests and at least according to one of them, there is a cheaper, more durable, slightly faster, and more widely available option in the GP5000TL.

The differences aren't huge, I know.
But in case this tire wasn't faster than it's predecessor... which is the one thing it is claimed to be the most (thus the "s"), I gotta say that's not great engineering right there.

The fact that they still created a great tire in the process is great and all (not really surprising, considering the baseline tire was probably the most beloved racing tire out there), but still a little questionable.

Regarding your comment on "faster on rough terrain".
I don't know about that. It being a little more supple might help a tiny bit, but on the other hand being a little more narrow, thus likely being ridden at higher air pressure kinda defeats this again.

I'd say paired with a wide hookless rim, this might be a very fast racing tire for sub-par roads.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

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ryanw
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by ryanw

They should have just said 100% faster than 5000TL on a hookless rim...
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tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

ryanw wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:25 pm
They should have just said 100% faster than 5000TL on a hookless rim...
:lol: The only way to dispute that is say it's actually infinitely faster! I'm sure the hookless compatibility will massively boost the use of the new tire and I'm also sure that if most users have a good experience then we'll quickly forget about 1-2W that we haven't "saved".

I'll try them once the 30mm is easily available.
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:54 pm
As I said, they tested it on a metal drum, albeit one with a larger diameter than the one used by BRR. And yes, Conti's team is well aware of BRR's testing and their procedures and on a podcast, a Co to rep was hopeful it would beat out the Corsa Speed...
Something between their testing and production went wrong ...
I also wonder if they could've changed the Black Chili compound between initial testing and production? Perhaps it exchanges rolling performance for improved wet traction - I know there have been comments from people suggesting that the 5000 perhaps offered less grip than the 4000S, so possibly that has been addressed with the 5000S and someone left the 20% improvement in the marketing material; I'm completely guessing at this, but it could be an explanation for the testing "disparities" we've seen.

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

They actually clearly state, that the Black Chilli compound is the same as before.

In case you are wondering where all my information is from. It's all from a current Continental Representative (the dude on the right) in this podcast (https://youtu.be/oD4OBnazR9M). Sorry, all in German.
From 3:35:30 he talks about the new tire and the claims are questionable at best, some highlights:
"The new tire is 20% faster than the older 5000TL and 5000C with a latex tube - so the new tire will save you 12W over either old pair at 300W"
"Had Filippo Ganna ridden the 5000TL instead of the 5000TR, he wouldn't have won the world championship"
"We do our testing very similar to Bicycle Rolling Resistance - we are looking to pass the Corsa Speed 2.0".

Well, at least Continental is self-aware: I was wondering why no one had posted on the topic of the tire not delivering in the tests of both AC and BRR - so I made my own comment ... aand it vanished right away.
Tried again... disappeared again.
Tested it out: yes comments about Corsa Speed and "Bicycle Rolling Resistance" are automatically deleted 😂😂
Last edited by FlatlandClimber on Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

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pdlpsher1
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Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

Now that I have had a chance to see/feel the tire in person I'm quite shocked to find it to be slower than the old. How can a thinner/lighter/softer tire be slower? Perhaps Conti changed the compound to be grippier but slower. A plausible move if Conti is aiming wide adoption of this tire among the pro peloton. And one less layer of casing couldn't make up the RR difference caused by the change in the compound.

One positive outcome at least for me personally it's the weight penalty of going from a narrow (25mm) to a wide (32mm) tire has shrunk. Previously the penalty was 87g. for going wider (382g. - 295g). Now it's only 63g (318g - 255g). So for those of you thinking about going wider the new TR is a good choice.

Below is a cutaway pic of my old 32mm TL tire, worn well past the TWI. I weighed the tire and it was 349g. So there has been 31g. of rubber that was lost as the tire was 380g when new. The orange layer is the vectran anti-puncture belt. Right below it are the three layers of casing. Below the casing is the additional butyl layer and it's quite thick. On the shoulder of the tread there's redundant rubber meant for puncture protection and not tire longevity. The road doesn't touch the shoulder area other than when cornering. It's hard to say for sure but I bet Conti removed some material there. In the size 32 losing over 60g. of weight is a lot of weight loss. Despite what Jarno claimed I do believe there's way less 'wear' rubber on the center of the tread. The TR felt substantially thinner in the middle, at least on the 32mm samples I now own. The difference could be smaller on the smaller sizes.

Image

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm
Tested it out: yes comments about Corsa Speed and "Bicycle Rolling Resistance" are automatically deleted 😂😂
That's too funny. You should post your comments in Arabic and see if it sticks 😁

Mocs123
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 9:19 pm

by Mocs123

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm

"The new tire is 20% faster than the older 5000TL and 5000C with a latex tube - so the new tire will save you 12W over either old pair at 300W"
"Had Filippo Ganna ridden the 5000TL instead of the 5000TR, he wouldn't have won the world championship"
"We do our testing very similar to Bicycle Rolling Resistance - we are looking to pass the Corsa Speed 2.0".
I'm surprised they make such outragious claims if they didn't think they would be backed up by testing as they are obviously aware that third parties are testing their tires. They could have just said they made a faster tire (without a crazy claim like 20%) that is now compatable with modern hookless rims. They are already good tires that are really fast, but putting claims out there that you can't back up puts a negitive light on an otherwise great tire.

To be honest the claims are too good to be true anyways. If the 5000S-TR was faster than the Corsa Speed 2.0 they would put the other tire companies out of business. Why would anyone buy something else?
2015 Wilier Zero.7 Rim - 6.37kg
2020 Trek Emonda SLR-7 Disc - 6.86kg
2023 Specialized SL7 - 7.18kg

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

The 20% claim was one that Continental put out there in all the media outlets.
The other claims are this one guy on this one podcast (AFAIK), but he is the representative Conti chose for this specific product, so I think his claims were backed by the company, as he gave a lot of insight into the development and prototyping of this tire.

I hope you guys understand, why I am maybe a little more disappointed in this product than I should be.
I am a Conti Fan, and love the GP5000C. So I took these claims at face value, and find this, including them blocking comments a bit of a sh!t Show.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

by Weenie


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