Bulletproof Allround-Wheels

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HansZuDemFranz
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 11:39 am

by HansZuDemFranz

Hi Weenies,

I`m looking for a set of allround wheels for my Scott Addict RC.

I was thinking of something between 35mm and 40mm depth. Maybe 45mm.
The thing is I would like them to be somewhat bulletproof, because I often do super long endurance rides (550km across Germany) and had a spoke break on me once, which obviously sucked.

I`m around 80-85kg. and fairly powerful. So should I just eat the extra weight and drag and go with 28 spokes front and rear? Or should 24 be enough?
I would also like to stay somewhat around 1000€.

Current contenders:
Roval Rapide CL38 (pretty heavy)
LightBicycle AR36 (Don`t know about import costs)
Zipp 303s

Any other ideas?
Thanks for your help.

joejack951
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE
Contact:

by joejack951

Consider this: even with a broken spoke you can ride a 32 spoke wheel without much issue. A 24 spoke wheel, not so much.

by Weenie


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Aesch
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:09 pm

by Aesch

28 front and rear, the drag and weight difference is negligible while the build has more backup in case of breakage etc. A good local wheelbuilder can build something excellent for you at that price. Depending on when you actually want to have them choices might varyc(lb has long lead times on wheels and rims for example)

HansZuDemFranz
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 11:39 am

by HansZuDemFranz

Aesch wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:52 pm
28 front and rear, the drag and weight difference is negligible while the build has more backup in case of breakage etc. A good local wheelbuilder can build something excellent for you at that price. Depending on when you actually want to have them choices might varyc(lb has long lead times on wheels and rims for example)
That seams reasonable. Do you know, what impact the depth of the rim has on the overall "toughness"? So for example would a 50mm rim with 24 spokes be about as tough as a 30mm rim with 28 spokes?

Aesch
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:09 pm

by Aesch

Generally speaking, the higher the rims the stronger they are (carbon that is). So depending on your strength, weight, riding profile (endurance /climbing/mixed/gravel/etc) you choose a combination of factors. So either 24 or 28 spokes, then you could also choose 24 slightly heavier / stiffer spokes (cx sprint instead of cx Ray for example). More spokes will generally be easier to make into a bomb-proof option, like you want.
Depending on the fact if they are for a rim of disc brake bike you could also think of the width of the rim as a factor. What size tyres do you ride (and what fits?).

emotive
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:40 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by emotive

I have a 5 year old set of AR36. 28 spokes, brass nipples, Hope hubs. 80kg rider. 20000km ridden. Half of it on gravel. Bulletproof.

If I could go back I would order AR46. I also have WR50 now and with my weight side winds are a non issue when using a 28mm road tyre. With a 44mm gravel tyre in strong winds a big gust will pull on the bars.

HansZuDemFranz
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 11:39 am

by HansZuDemFranz

Aesch wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:41 pm
Generally speaking, the higher the rims the stronger they are (carbon that is). So depending on your strength, weight, riding profile (endurance /climbing/mixed/gravel/etc) you choose a combination of factors. So either 24 or 28 spokes, then you could also choose 24 slightly heavier / stiffer spokes (cx sprint instead of cx Ray for example). More spokes will generally be easier to make into a bomb-proof option, like you want.
Depending on the fact if they are for a rim of disc brake bike you could also think of the width of the rim as a factor. What size tyres do you ride (and what fits?).

I`ve benn running 28mm tyres for the last year and would likely continue to do so. I will check with some local wheelbuilders, what they can offer me. Thank you so much for your help. :thumbup:

CampagYOLO
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu May 06, 2021 3:58 pm

by CampagYOLO

Aesch wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:52 pm
28 front and rear, the drag and weight difference is negligible while the build has more backup in case of breakage etc. A good local wheelbuilder can build something excellent for you at that price. Depending on when you actually want to have them choices might varyc(lb has long lead times on wheels and rims for example)
I fully agree with all of this, my 28 f/r gravel wheels built by a local bulder have been put through all kinds of abuse off road and haven't gone out of true at all.

In this case, the weight penalty is far outweighed by the peace of mind of having a set of bullet proof wheels.

Aesch
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:09 pm

by Aesch

HansZuDemFranz wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:34 am


I`ve benn running 28mm tyres for the last year and would likely continue to do so. I will check with some local wheelbuilders, what they can offer me. Thank you so much for your help. :thumbup:
:welcome:

For comparison sake, I have 2 bikes with disc brakes and 3 wheelsets.
1: 24h front, 24 rear with slightly thicker spokes on the drive side. 45mm. This is my "daily allround" wheelset for the road bike. 21mm internal which allows the 28c tyres to blow up to 29mm width.
2: gravel wheelset, gr1600 by dt for the gravel bike.

The 3rd is something close to what you could use. It's a 28h front and rear disc wheelset, this is shod with gp5000 @32mm (34.5mm in real life @ 26mm internal width). I use this on both bikes, either the road bike in winter or the gravel bike in summer. I built this myself to be bombproof and easy to maintain.

If you intend to run 28mm tyres there are a few thoughts: it is maximum Aero on a (very) wide rim, so something like a 24mm internal rim with 50mm height is most Aero efficient. However, it needs to fit in your bike with a safe margin. There is no gain on rolling resistance from 20mm internal and upwards with a 28mm tyre so going for one of the now "normal" wheelsets with 21mm internal width is a perfect choice.

Farsports will build you a kaze disc wheelset on 28h front and rear dt350 hub on cx rays and brass nipples for around 850usd shipped. (choice of height whatever you want 30 35 45 58, you could even choose 35 front and 45rear). If it fits in your bike their options also include a very wide gravel rim of 50mm height at a similar price. (you could then run your 28c tyres at 5 ish bars for long term comfort).

Hexsense
Posts: 3269
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

HansZuDemFranz wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:53 pm
That seams reasonable. Do you know, what impact the depth of the rim has on the overall "toughness"? So for example would a 50mm rim with 24 spokes be about as tough as a 30mm rim with 28 spokes?
Toughness usually doesn't scale in the same way as stiffness.
Bigger volume shape inherently is more stiff. So manufacturer can get away with using thinner shape wall while it is still plenty stiff. What it leads to is a stiffer wheel that has thinner sidewall and easier to get impact damage. Pretty much all 25mm deep wheel have stiff side wall. But many 50mm deep wheelset have side wall so thin that you can press it in by hand. Increased surface area is also more succeptible to flying stone strike. There is simply more chance of the stone hitting your rim when there is more side profile to catch it. I have a 56mm rim that lost significant chunk of carbon layers near the a spoke hole because of a flying stone. If it is 30mm deep, the stone would just fly pass it or hit a spoke rather than hitting the inner edge of the rim.

50mm rim with 24 spokes will be stiffer.
30mm rim with 28 spokes will be tougher.
Aesch wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:41 pm
Generally speaking, the higher the rims the stronger they are (carbon that is).
Disagree. HansZuDemFranz asks about toughness, not stiffness.

Aesch
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:09 pm

by Aesch

OK fair enough, I interpreted it that way but you're right.

HansZuDemFranz
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 11:39 am

by HansZuDemFranz

Hexsense wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:08 pm
HansZuDemFranz wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:53 pm
That seams reasonable. Do you know, what impact the depth of the rim has on the overall "toughness"? So for example would a 50mm rim with 24 spokes be about as tough as a 30mm rim with 28 spokes?
Toughness usually doesn't scale in the same way as stiffness.
Bigger volume shape inherently is more stiff. So manufacturer can get away with using thinner shape wall while it is still plenty stiff. What it leads to is a stiffer wheel that has thinner sidewall and easier to get impact damage. Pretty much all 25mm deep wheel have stiff side wall. But many 50mm deep wheelset have side wall so thin that you can press it in by hand. Increased surface area is also more succeptible to flying stone strike. There is simply more chance of the stone hitting your rim when there is more side profile to catch it. I have a 56mm rim that lost significant chunk of carbon layers near the a spoke hole because of a flying stone. If it is 30mm deep, the stone would just fly pass it or hit a spoke rather than hitting the inner edge of the rim.

50mm rim with 24 spokes will be stiffer.
30mm rim with 28 spokes will be tougher.
Aesch wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:41 pm
Generally speaking, the higher the rims the stronger they are (carbon that is).
Disagree. HansZuDemFranz asks about toughness, not stiffness.
I see, thank you very much.
So I feel like my best bet would be a 35-40mm rim with 28 spokes. Preferably something like the CX Sprint.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Which spoke did you break? Which wheelset?

Was it on the rear wheel, non drive side (nds)?

Is it a disc brake bike?

HansZuDemFranz
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 11:39 am

by HansZuDemFranz

alcatraz wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:15 pm
Which spoke did you break? Which wheelset?

Was it on the rear wheel, non drive side (nds)?

Is it a disc brake bike?
It was on a Newmen SL R.32 Wheelset. Rear Wheel, disc brake, brake-side. It also happened while I was braking, although it really wasnt a hard brake or anything.
The wheel had only be ridden 300km when it broke.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

The hub and rim look good. The spokes are very lightweight with thin diameters at the head and threads.

I'm going to guess that the actual assembly could have been done better too. Ensuring balanced tensions etc.

Personally I'd keep the wheel but rebuild it with thicker spokes.

Sure 24 spokes aren't exactly endurance but if you use 6gr spokes instead of 4.8gr (that came with the wheels, sapim d-light), then it should be quite a lot more durable.

Did you notice any noise from the wheels while riding/braking/sprinting? How about if you squeeze a pair of brake side spokes? I'm guessing they're quite loose if you're breaking spokes.

Are you running the wheels tubeless with tight fitting tires? That really lowers NDS tensions which can lead to spoke breakage. Let a builder tension the wheel with the tires on and you're golden.

by Weenie


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Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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