New Zipp 404/454 is slower!!

[cajer]

Zipp just dropped their updated 404/454 wheels. It looks like they are 1/4 watts slower…. It looks like if Zipp weren’t the slowest wheels they are now.

https://bikerumor.com/2021/06/22/new-zi ... t-lighter/

[Hexsense]

TLDR:
1-4 watts slower aerodynamically due to increased width.
Save 4.4-13.6w on rolling efficiency (thanks to wider tire and rim at lower pressure.)

So, slower on best quality road (against old version with 23c tire). Faster on average to bad road with 25c tire and wider.
In 2021, who still use 23c tire though?

[Singular]

In 2021, who still use 23c tire though?

Guilty as charged (on the front on two sets of gofast wheels and one weightweenie set)...

[cajer]

Save 4.4-13.6w on rolling efficiency (thanks to wider tire and rim at lower pressure.)

So, slower on best quality road (against old version with 23c tire). Faster on average to bad road with 25c tire and wider.
In 2021, who still use 23c tire though?

They give no indication on how those numbers are arrived at other than tires and vibration. If they aren't willing to show how it's dervied when making such radical claims, I'm going to say it's marketing BS. Espically as you only save 11 watts going from a gator skin to a gp5000.

Also I'm pretty sure it'll be slower with a 25mm tire too compared to other modern wheels. As the Roval, Knot 64, and DT Swiss wheels seem to be able to make something that wide (21mm internal, 30+mm external) while still being good aerowise. Though the old Zipp 404's were quite narrow at 18mm?

I still ride 23mm as my roads are quite nice and I'm under 60kg so I don't benefit nearly as much from wider tires. Also I do a decent amount of TT where aero is king, epsically when I can run corsa speeds for good rolling resistance.

[Hexsense]

Can they claim the less drag freehub into the saving as well?
Personally, I don't really care much about freewheeling drag. As long as it is reasonable.

I still don't see what it do better than (flyweight) Light-Bicycle WR65 with carbon-ti hubs.

[Nickldn]

Interesting claims...I thought an internal rim width of c. 19mm was optimal for 25mm tyres. Maybe it's different for hookless rims and a 23mm internal width is better. I would have thought that would be better for 28mm tyres. Confusing.

What's the external width, I can't find it anywhere?

[cajer]

It's 23mm internal. So you just can't run 23mm tires too :/

[Nickldn]

It's 23mm internal. So you just can't run 23mm tires too :/

Not sure any hookless 23mm tyres are available?

[cajer]

Even if there were 23mm hookless tires, you shouldn't run them as the inner width is larger than the tire.

[Hexsense]

Even if there were 23mm hookless tires, you shouldn't run them as the inner width is larger than the tire.

Not really,
Continental Gp4000sII 23mm has 63mm casing width. And it measure 27.19mm on 21mm internal width rim.

The only thing narrower than the internal rim width is the name, the size labelled.
Tire shape don't derive from labelled width (i.e. it don't understand that your tire supposed to be 23mm). It's rim width (21mm) and tire casing width (63mm) and tire construction (GP4000sII's regular vulcanized construction) that make 27.19mm inflated size.

[cajer]

That's true, but GP4000s' aren't really made anymore and that's the widest 23mm tire. My 23mm GP5000's run 24.5mm wide (caliper measured) on 21mm internal width wheels.

But either way I'm disappointed in Zipp, but they have been a shadow of themselves ever since Zipp bought them. For the 303/300 S, this is the metric they used to say the wheel was faster:

Two competitor wheels were compared against the 303 Firecrest® and 303 S wheelsets riding over a dirt road at 35kph.

If they did the same thing here with the Zipp 404/454, then the comparison is totally nonsensical as any slight rolling resistance gains from lower pressure are super inflated when on dirt vs road.

[TobinHatesYou]

People cry about aero wheels because they aren't light enough.
Now people cry about light af Zipp wheels because they aren't aero enough.
...even though with 25mm tires they'll be faster at least up to 40km/h

Can't win.

[cajer]

People cry about aero wheels because they aren't light enough.
Now people cry about light af Zipp wheels because they aren't aero enough.
...even though with 25mm tires they'll be faster at least up to 40km/h

Can't win.

I'm sad as they are not aero enough, I can't used my perfered tire size, and GP5000's and many other tires aren't compatible. Them being light is a nice touch, but the tire compatability....

Also losing 4 watts on the 454 is not a good look espically when they were testing slower than most other wheels.

[TobinHatesYou]

I'm sad as they are not aero enough, I can't used my perfered tire size, and GP5000's and many other tires aren't compatible. Them being light is a nice touch, but the tire compatability....

Also losing 4 watts on the 454 is not a good look espically when they were testing slower than most other wheels.

You must be hella fast to care so much about not being able to use 23mm tires. I think the 353s and 454s are just about perfect for our roads / hills. If you can prove the wheels are slower in your riding conditions, then show us.

[Spinnekop]

People cry about aero wheels because they aren't light enough.
Now people cry about light af Zipp wheels because they aren't aero enough.
...even though with 25mm tires they'll be faster at least up to 40km/h

Can't win.

I'm sad as they are not aero enough, I can't used my perfered tire size, and GP5000's and many other tires aren't compatible. Them being light is a nice touch, but the tire compatability....

GP5000s are compatible.
It just depends what your definition of "compatible" is.........

Do they work perfectly fine on the hookless rims? Yes they do.
Does Continental want to put their balls on the line saying they officially are compatible? No they don't.