New Zipp 404/454 is slower!!

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FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Enough has been said about this. Wider tires and wider rims roll faster. 10W seems like a stretch though.

Definitely a nice wheel, but maybe not for everyone.
Who wants light and aero should look at Rapide CLX and who want light and aero and tubeless, but not hookless should look at DTSwiss and Bontrager RSL.
I think there is something for everyone.
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Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
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FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Spinnekop wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:19 am
cajer wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:55 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:40 am
People cry about aero wheels because they aren't light enough.
Now people cry about light af Zipp wheels because they aren't aero enough.
...even though with 25mm tires they'll be faster at least up to 40km/h

Can't win.
I'm sad as they are not aero enough, I can't used my perfered tire size, and GP5000's and many other tires aren't compatible. Them being light is a nice touch, but the tire compatability....
GP5000s are compatible.
It just depends what your definition of "compatible" is.........

Do they work perfectly fine on the hookless rims? Yes they do.
Does Continental want to put their balls on the line saying they officially are compatible? No they don't.
According to ETRTO standard, hookless is only compatible with a tire pressure of up to 70PSI (5 bar). That's what ZIPP says about these wheels also.
Several tires, that are not rated as hookless compatible, have a high recommended tire pressure, and in case of the GP5000TL, even a higher minimum tire pressure (5.5 to 7.5 bar in 25c).
Can you run these tires hookless and never notice anything? Likely.
But I do understand Conti, SRAM, bike shops, and customers, who don't want to risk anything, when a non-compatible tire has to interfere with a flat surface at either a pressure TOO high for the system or TOO low for the tire.

RE: 10W faster... the big winner here definitely isn't the 454, that are mighty expensive, have this saw tooth profile that never worked FOR ME, and don't test faster than 404 shape, but the 404 Firecrest.
They are now very light, should be at least as aero as the 454, and roll just as fast.
The penalty for paying half the price is 90g, or <1W on Mortirolo.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

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WorkonSunday
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm

by WorkonSunday

wasnt there something also about the bead shape that makes them having a void against the inside wall of the rim and not able to grip on the rim properly which causes slippage and blowout under high pressure? in goodyear eagle F1 and F1ss release notes there is some info there.

i do see plenty of people in london using 303s with GP5000 tho...
Some say pour 10ml water out of your bottle to save that last bit of the weight. Sorry, i go one step further, i tend to the rider off my bikes. :thumbup:
n+1...14 last time i checked, but i lost count :mrgreen:

petromyzon
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

Looks like the 858 are 18mm internal and still hooked. So definitely still the one to choose if you want to go fast on smooth roads.

I think there have been some small but decent improvements in width:weight ratio. It's a bit of a shame they seem so keen on fudging the marketing numbers when I think a lot of people who ride on poor roads or like to mix it up are pretty convinced of the benefits of going wider, even if the aero numbers are worse.

I don't really like the x5x/NSW aesthetic and the price is way too premium for me. If I was in the market I'd be interested in the rumoured ENVE 4.5 AR update also.

I think the hookless thing will take a while to resolve. Conti, when you consider the full scope of it's business, is a large company compared to bike brands. They know they have a strong and popular product offering and don't want to be pushed in to taking any legal risk, however small.

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

cajer wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:55 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:40 am
People cry about aero wheels because they aren't light enough.
Now people cry about light af Zipp wheels because they aren't aero enough.
...even though with 25mm tires they'll be faster at least up to 40km/h

Can't win.
I'm sad as they are not aero enough, I can't used my perfered tire size, and GP5000's and many other tires aren't compatible. Them being light is a nice touch, but the tire compatability....

Also losing 4 watts on the 454 is not a good look espically when they were testing slower than most other wheels.
What does it mean "not aero enough"?

Of course wider is less aero. Put a paper thin wheel and it'll be "more aero" than something that's not paper thin. I imagine all companies know that and still they are moving to really wide rims.

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

My understanding is that 'wider' rims are now 'better', because they are more aero at larger angles of attack, where 'narrower' rims are 'less' aero when the wind blows from the side. It doesn't matter if the new wheels are less aero when the wind blows head on, because that's not as important now.

It's all about how you measure air resistance in the wind tunnel and write your marketing materials. :D
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Nickldn wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:26 pm
My understanding is that 'wider' rims are now 'better', because they are more aero at larger angles of attack, where 'narrower' rims are 'less' aero when the wind blows from the side. It doesn't matter if the new wheels are less aero when the wind blows head on, because that's not as important now.

It's all about how you measure air resistance in the wind tunnel and write your marketing materials. :D
Nonetheless, you have to give praise to zipp for admiting that their new, wider wheels are less aero but it compensates with other things. Other major brands just came out saying "there are the fastest wheels ever" - the end. Even when they moved to 35mm wide. Head on, the 35mm wide and less deep HAVE to be less aero than these zipp 404/454.

Nonetheless, that's why I tried to make the argument to go to the "basics". Above 50mm deep at sub-1400gr is damn impressive.

BZE
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:25 pm

by BZE

For those interested, Zipp do provide both a page https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/campaigns/ ... efficiency and whitepaper https://www.sram.com/globalassets/publi ... ained2.pdf to back up their new offerings.

cajer
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

by cajer

I found that, and they claim a 9% rolling resistance decrease with the wider wheels which is only ~2 watts at 40 kph on road (using GP5000), which is no where enough to get their large power saving claims. They then made comparisons between their 303's on dirt which is where they get their crazy wattage improvments, and that's not applicable for a large portion of riding.

"Two competitor wheels were compared against the 303 Firecrest® and 303 S wheelsets riding over a dirt road at 35kph."

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

Looks like we'll need to make our wheel selection based on prevailing wind direction.

Maybe Garmin will provide a new planning feature to help.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

The "not so fast" ZIPP tangente TLR roll at ~30W for a pair of wheels at 45kph according to Aerocoach.
Aerocoach apparently does the testing on rollers, on the track and outdoors, which makes their claims pretty valid.
Hard to believe that you can save 10W on 30W total RR.
I wonder how bad the roads are that SRAM bases these numbers on.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

colhd
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:31 am

by colhd

Nickldn wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Interesting claims...I thought an internal rim width of c. 19mm was optimal for 25mm tyres. Maybe it's different for hookless rims and a 23mm internal width is better. I would have thought that would be better for 28mm tyres. Confusing.

What's the external width, I can't find it anywhere?
UK distributor says the 404 and 454 are 28mm external.

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

colhd wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:38 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Interesting claims...I thought an internal rim width of c. 19mm was optimal for 25mm tyres. Maybe it's different for hookless rims and a 23mm internal width is better. I would have thought that would be better for 28mm tyres. Confusing.

What's the external width, I can't find it anywhere?
UK distributor says the 404 and 454 are 28mm external.
bikerumor has photos measuring them at 27.66mm

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