Rim Brake Squeal - Farsports Kaze

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Visqu
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:19 pm

by Visqu

Watching this with great interest, my new Aeroad build is equipped with grooved Kaze, Campy red and DA direct mount.

Waiting for the roads to be a bit more free of debris to take the bike out for its maiden voyage :)

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Update and possible solution.
I cleaned the front rim with alcohol and scuffed the surface with 400 grit emery paper. Just enough to remove the shine. I also sanded the brake pads to reveal all new surface. Good result - no squeal, just a pleasant hissing sound.

For the rear I only sanded the brake pads, didn't touch the rims. Still squealing, no noticeable improvement. Last night I gave the rear rim the same treatment as the front. Will report back after todays ride.

No idea if this fix will be lasting. I didn't hammer the front brake yesterday, but there were a few firm applications, and most of the time I was using the front by itself as the noise from the rear was pissing me off.

I thnk the squeal has something to do with how shiny and polished the brake track gets. The material is very hard and doesn't really wear, just polishes. We'll see.

If you do scuff the brake tracks use extra care to keep any abrasive material from touching any other part of the rim as the finish could get scratched.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Maddie
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by Maddie

Good news and very interesting, thanks for testing. It's true that the braking surface have some shiny appearance.
Let's see how long lasting this solution is

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Today's ride - the front brake was again silent and I really tested it on some steep descents that required heavy braking in a few places - no deterioration.

BUT the rear was still squealing except it was different after last night's rim treatment - lower frequency and more vibration to it. I'm thinking it has to be the brake caliper. So after the ride it was back on the stand to re-torque the brake mounts. I hadn't touched them since the original build and sure enough the rear post and cable side nut (EE owners will know what I'm talkin' 'bout), both had quarter to a half turn until they were fully cinched up :oops: . That's got to be the issue. Did the front as well. It was better but also had a little room for additional tightening.

Tomorrow another test. I guess the lesson is that new builds need a once over. Either that or I am just a shitty mechanic :P

Now if the brakes make noise tomorrow I will ride off a cliff 'cause I am out of tricks. :(
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Alexandrumarian
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by Alexandrumarian

I am skeptical sanding will work long term. That texture you create will glaze over pretty fast- you just can't keep sanding them, it is not a reasonable faff to do. CF dust is messy, itchy, you must avoid inhaling even in the slight amount you can create with 400 grit.

Ime the squeals are system faults. For example I use Boras with red pads. Had them in frame A, no problems even without any toein. Broke the frame in crash, moved to frame B, massive squeals in the rear. Had to resort to a lot of toe in to tame it, which is fine because I don't like having a strong rear. Then moved wheels to a new frame C, where rear is OK but front started acting up. I had to introduce toein, which I don't like too much in the front. It makes the modulation nicer but decreases power, and I am over 90kg....

So if you can't live with toe in, or they keep squealing, I would rather change the cable length first. The front lengths can be pretty tolerant to a few cm less or extra, and those could be enough to shift the resonances.

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LouisN
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by LouisN

I would be tempted to try soft pads.
In fact I've been using cheap soft blue pads for years. Besides having to change them often, they stop as well as exepnsive hard pads.
I'll be buying a Kaze rim soon and will definitely use the soft pads on the grooved surface. Curious to know if it will squeal.

Louis :)

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

So the front continues to be totally squeal free after my treatment and a few hard rides. The rear continues to be a minor problem. Tightening up the caliper mounts simply increased the frequency - so a higher pitched squeal. My guess is that it has something to do with the design of the mounting area on the Factor O2 VAM. The whole area is so minimal, tiny seat stays, tiny brake bridge, it wouldn't be surprising if there was a bit more flex in that area then is ideal for a brake mount. The only good news is that I am pretty light on the rear brake and it only squeals if I squeeze it hard, so it's not a real issue for me. Interestingly if I squeeze it even harder - as hard as I can without lockup, it goes silent again.
Alexandrumarian wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:14 am
I am skeptical sanding will work long term. That texture you create will glaze over pretty fast- you just can't keep sanding them, it is not a reasonable faff to do.
Yes absolutely, not something you want to do repeatedly, if ever. I was just hoping to change something up and it seemed to work, at least up front. Worth trying it once as a last resort.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Maddie
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by Maddie

To add another data point. I changed brake pads from Campy red to Reynolds cryo blue power on DA direct mount calipers and Kaze rims. The horrible squeal that I experienced beforehand with the Campy pads has completely gone. And the brake performance is excellent.

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nickf
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by nickf

Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:28 pm
nickf wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:05 pm
I never toe my pads and my grooved kaze wheels are silent. Using the farsports pads and Bontrager branded black prince.
What brake calipers?
How much do you weigh?
Any hard stops on steep hills?
-EE G3 standard calipers.
-I'm around 79kg
-Plenty of hard stops since I moved up into the hills. Also, many downhill complete stops when I approach stop signs. Mine have been absolutely silent. Excellent stopping power also.

Pinguin
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by Pinguin

Is the Ata brake track recommend?
Is brake performance better with grooved brake track on Kaze wheels?
Brake pads worn out very fast,right?

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

nickf wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 10:20 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:28 pm
nickf wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:05 pm
I never toe my pads and my grooved kaze wheels are silent. Using the farsports pads and Bontrager branded black prince.
What brake calipers?
How much do you weigh?
Any hard stops on steep hills?
-EE G3 standard calipers.
-I'm around 79kg
-Plenty of hard stops since I moved up into the hills. Also, many downhill complete stops when I approach stop signs. Mine have been absolutely silent. Excellent stopping power also.
This tells us that the bike and in particular the caliper mounting area makes a difference. I am also starting to have suspicions about direct mount. Just because direct mount is solid doesn't mean that it is not prone to some annoying harmonic vibration.

My brakes are mostly quiet but if I need to get on them hard, they will scream occasionally. Not a consistent thing. I bet temperature is a factor as well.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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Mr.Gib
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Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Pinguin wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:05 pm
Is the Ata brake track recommend?
Is brake performance better with grooved brake track on Kaze wheels?
Brake pads worn out very fast,right?
Yes,
Yes,
And sort of, but who cares? If you are in the mountains, I would go with alloy. And if not in the mountains, the pads should last long enough. And if that isn't good enough, go with disc brakes if you want carbon wheels.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Pinguin
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:28 pm

by Pinguin

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:06 pm
Pinguin wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:05 pm
Is the Ata brake track recommend?
Is brake performance better with grooved brake track on Kaze wheels?
Brake pads worn out very fast,right?
Yes,
Yes,
And sort of, but who cares? If you are in the mountains, I would go with alloy. And if not in the mountains, the pads should last long enough. And if that isn't good enough, go with disc brakes if you want carbon wheels.
Is the grooved brake track only better in wet conditions or also in dry?

MaxPower
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:30 pm

by MaxPower

Pinguin wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:15 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:06 pm
Pinguin wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:05 pm
Is the Ata brake track recommend?
Is brake performance better with grooved brake track on Kaze wheels?
Brake pads worn out very fast,right?
Yes,
Yes,
And sort of, but who cares? If you are in the mountains, I would go with alloy. And if not in the mountains, the pads should last long enough. And if that isn't good enough, go with disc brakes if you want carbon wheels.
Is the grooved brake track only better in wet conditions or also in dry?
both, but in dry conditions it is minimal difference in feel/power/distance. in the wet it is some, but again, i would not say it is dramatic. i would say the ata makes the initial bite a lot better, but not total power/feel.

Rone69
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:28 am

by Rone69

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:22 pm
I have a set of Farsports Kaze 35mm on my rim brake bike (grooved brake track), very pleased with them except I have been getting brake squeal. The brakes are EE G4 direct mount. I have tried Black Prince and Campy red for carbon. The Campy pads were worse. It seems the pads get glazed - the brake track seems unaffected. All it takes is a few hard braking efforts on a steep grade for the squealing to begin. I can get rid of it by sanding the pad to remove the glaze. Lots of toe in is also essential. I don't have a problem as long as no really hard braking is required, but if I hit 'em hard, the squealing is back until I sand the pads again.

Just want to throw this out there in case anyone has had similar experiences and has some tips. I had a though about using a different pad holder for the EE. Something that would hold the pad more securely.

Perhaps the cause is a combination of factors, but the fact both front and rear will squeal has me concerned. Rare to get rear brake squeal in my experience.
Same situation, but the brakes are Ultregra R8010 and I'm 90kg.
I do a lot of tries, different pads set up, more or less toe in, cleaned the rims with isopropyl alchool, sanded the brake pads, also I cleaned the rim following Farsport instruction (see the file attached) it works just for a few steep descent.
Actually I don't have solved the problem.
Attachments
Braking Problem_Pagina_1a.jpg
Braking Problem_Pagina_2x.jpg
Braking Problem_Pagina_3x.jpg

by Weenie


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