Rim Brake Squeal - Farsports Kaze
Moderator: robbosmans
I have a set of Farsports Kaze 35mm on my rim brake bike (grooved brake track), very pleased with them except I have been getting brake squeal. The brakes are EE G4 direct mount. I have tried Black Prince and Campy red for carbon. The Campy pads were worse. It seems the pads get glazed - the brake track seems unaffected. All it takes is a few hard braking efforts on a steep grade for the squealing to begin. I can get rid of it by sanding the pad to remove the glaze. Lots of toe in is also essential. I don't have a problem as long as no really hard braking is required, but if I hit 'em hard, the squealing is back until I sand the pads again.
Just want to throw this out there in case anyone has had similar experiences and has some tips. I had a though about using a different pad holder for the EE. Something that would hold the pad more securely.
Perhaps the cause is a combination of factors, but the fact both front and rear will squeal has me concerned. Rare to get rear brake squeal in my experience.
Just want to throw this out there in case anyone has had similar experiences and has some tips. I had a though about using a different pad holder for the EE. Something that would hold the pad more securely.
Perhaps the cause is a combination of factors, but the fact both front and rear will squeal has me concerned. Rare to get rear brake squeal in my experience.
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
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On my Farsports rims (classic 25mm), they squealed loudly when set toed-in. I finally set them to almost zero toe and they quieted down.
I took a close look at the brake tracks and there were small streaks of scorched brake pad material stuck to the rim. I could scrape it off with my thumb nail but it was solidly adhered. Very strange. Other than that, the rims seem fine, perhaps the surface is a bit polished compared to brand new, but that would be normal for any rim.
If I understand the physics, the squeal is just a high frequency vibration - a superfast grip and release cycle. I am surprised the EE brakes would be a victim, they seem very solid. The bike (Factor O2 VAM) is plenty stiff, but perhaps there is some splay in the brake mount areas that is a contributing variable.
If I understand the physics, the squeal is just a high frequency vibration - a superfast grip and release cycle. I am surprised the EE brakes would be a victim, they seem very solid. The bike (Factor O2 VAM) is plenty stiff, but perhaps there is some splay in the brake mount areas that is a contributing variable.
For the first few rides I had the pads set up dead square and they were fine but than deteriorated. Amazingly good braking even with the toe in.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
Big fan of the KAZE braking as well (i use black prince - but the EVO pads).
Front wheel, rear wheel only or both?
Does weight destribution on the bike change it?
Have you cleaned the brake tracks with anything? (i use Acetone - pure acetone)
i would do:
1. clean with acetone (to get them completly clean)
2. clean pads (like you already did before)
3. check is everything is torqued down correctly
4. try Black prince EVO if you are using the regular ones - maybe the different shaping can help.
5. try to add some weight to the brakes externally and see if the added mass changes the brake vibration
6. change stuff out - try different cable length for the brakes, different brakes/parts on the brakes...
no idea if using different pad compounds has increased the problem for you... hard to say - but a good cleaning should check that.
Front wheel, rear wheel only or both?
Does weight destribution on the bike change it?
Have you cleaned the brake tracks with anything? (i use Acetone - pure acetone)
i would do:
1. clean with acetone (to get them completly clean)
2. clean pads (like you already did before)
3. check is everything is torqued down correctly
4. try Black prince EVO if you are using the regular ones - maybe the different shaping can help.
5. try to add some weight to the brakes externally and see if the added mass changes the brake vibration
6. change stuff out - try different cable length for the brakes, different brakes/parts on the brakes...
no idea if using different pad compounds has increased the problem for you... hard to say - but a good cleaning should check that.
Very similar experience, I have brake squeal as well. 25mm Kaze rims with grooves (ATA and HTM), combined with Dura Ace 9100 direct mount calipers. I first used Black Prince Evo pads (almost no squeal) but then switched to Campy Red since I wanted something with more bite. Modulation and Bite is excellent with Kaze/Campy but the squeal is horrible when braking hard. I tried different pad positions, but no matter how extreme the position, the squeal never went away. Did lots of cleaning to both pads and rims with acetone and also saw these small patches on the rim braking surface that I couldn't remove. I changed to Black Prince for a test and again, almost no squeal. But braking performance on a worse level.
Stiffness of the caliper doesn't seem to be the culprit since DA direct mounts are plenty stiff. I don't want to change rims since they are the first for me that work in rainy conditions in an acceptable manner. I mounted some Reynolds Blue Cryo but can't test them now since the frame is getting painted. But I'm also very curious what others did.
Stiffness of the caliper doesn't seem to be the culprit since DA direct mounts are plenty stiff. I don't want to change rims since they are the first for me that work in rainy conditions in an acceptable manner. I mounted some Reynolds Blue Cryo but can't test them now since the frame is getting painted. But I'm also very curious what others did.
All good suggestions but to answer:MaxPower wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:02 amBig fan of the KAZE braking as well (i use black prince - but the EVO pads).
Front wheel, rear wheel only or both?
Does weight destribution on the bike change it?
Have you cleaned the brake tracks with anything? (i use Acetone - pure acetone)
i would do:
1. clean with acetone (to get them completly clean)
2. clean pads (like you already did before)
3. check is everything is torqued down correctly
4. try Black prince EVO if you are using the regular ones - maybe the different shaping can help.
5. try to add some weight to the brakes externally and see if the added mass changes the brake vibration
6. change stuff out - try different cable length for the brakes, different brakes/parts on the brakes...
no idea if using different pad compounds has increased the problem for you... hard to say - but a good cleaning should check that.
both wheels
cleaned with alcohol
weight distribution makes no difference
torqued correctly
using Black Prince EVO
Add weight to the brakes externally? Huh, like glue on some lead fishing weights? Add weight to EE brakes? Am I being pranked?
Cable length - with EE it is either the correct length, or it's wrong. You have about two mm to play with at most.
I was hoping Dura Ace calipers would be a get out of jail card just in case - guess not.Maddie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:02 amStiffness of the caliper doesn't seem to be the culprit since DA direct mounts are plenty stiff. I don't want to change rims since they are the first for me that work in rainy conditions in an acceptable manner. I mounted some Reynolds Blue Cryo but can't test them now since the frame is getting painted. But I'm also very curious what others did.
I thought the braking was excellent with the Black Prince. And yes the braking is really good in the wet. Got caught in a light shower and was amazed how little the braking declined. And the water stopped the squeal!
Maddie, you should be able to get the rims clean. You might also try roughing the surface with 400 grit emery paper. It might just change things up enough to change the sound. Certain you want to grind the pads to remove any glazing.
And one more suggestion - what about a super soft pad like SwissStop Yellow. I have some and will try.
Love the wheels, but I am planning to add a deeper set. Might go for LightBicycle this time.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
SwissStop Yellow could be interesting. I tried them on an older set of rims (without new grooves technology and basalt surface) and didn't like them at that time. But could be worth a shot on Kaze rims just to see what happens.Mr.Gib wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:49 pmI was hoping Dura Ace calipers would be a get out of jail card just in case - guess not.
I thought the braking was excellent with the Black Prince. And yes the braking is really good in the wet. Got caught in a light shower and was amazed how little the braking declined. And the water stopped the squeal!
Maddie, you should be able to get the rims clean. You might also try roughing the surface with 400 grit emery paper. It might just change things up enough to change the sound. Certain you want to grind the pads to remove any glazing.
And one more suggestion - what about a super soft pad like SwissStop Yellow. I have some and will try.
- wheelsONfire
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Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
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Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
The only real problem with the yellows is that they are so soft that the brake levers will feel spongy. I hate that but they stop the bike as well as anything. Easy on rims also.Maddie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:43 pmSwissStop Yellow could be interesting. I tried them on an older set of rims (without new grooves technology and basalt surface) and didn't like them at that time. But could be worth a shot on Kaze rims just to see what happens.Mr.Gib wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:49 pmI was hoping Dura Ace calipers would be a get out of jail card just in case - guess not.
I thought the braking was excellent with the Black Prince. And yes the braking is really good in the wet. Got caught in a light shower and was amazed how little the braking declined. And the water stopped the squeal!
Maddie, you should be able to get the rims clean. You might also try roughing the surface with 400 grit emery paper. It might just change things up enough to change the sound. Certain you want to grind the pads to remove any glazing.
And one more suggestion - what about a super soft pad like SwissStop Yellow. I have some and will try.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
I can't quite remember but there might have been someone claiming that the torque on the caliper bolt could have an impact on that frequency. Could that be? It's pretty easy to test.
I think bmp0 was confident about what causes this and he had an idea of how to fix it. If only I could find his previous post about it.
I think bmp0 was confident about what causes this and he had an idea of how to fix it. If only I could find his previous post about it.
That's interesting but are we talking about direct mount specifically? I assume that more torque could help the issue. But with Dura Ace direct mounts also having the same issue, my guess is that it comes down to pad/rim interface. And problems with Bora as well.alcatraz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:09 amI can't quite remember but there might have been someone claiming that the torque on the caliper bolt could have an impact on that frequency. Could that be? It's pretty easy to test.
I think bmp0 was confident about what causes this and he had an idea of how to fix it. If only I could find his previous post about it.
Regardless, I wouldn't stray too far from torque spec - not interested in stripping the mounts on my VAM, or messing up my EE's.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
What brake calipers?
How much do you weigh?
Any hard stops on steep hills?
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
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