Princeton wheels is being sued by SRAM (Zipp)

[TonyOliver83]

Next, mother nature representing the whales will be sueing both companies for copying their tailfins.

Yes, a ridiculous statement for a ridiculous situation.

Further to my last,

You can't be sad at someone copying you when your design copies something in the first place. Unless you're being really childish and claiming 'but we copied nature first'

Also, the designs are dissimilar enough to me. A different take from the same inspiration.

Zipp has a directional ramp design to the bumps. (Sawtooth)
Princeton has a smoother non directional flowing hump design.

Seems just a case of greedy capitalism...

[joejack951]

Next, mother nature representing the whales will be sueing both companies for copying their tailfins.

Yes, a ridiculous statement for a ridiculous situation.

Further to my last,

You can't be sad at someone copying you when your design copies something in the first place. Unless you're being really childish and claiming 'but we copied nature first'

If you had any intellectual property of your own you would feel very differently about how 'childish' it is to defend said property. One of the basic tenants of a patent-able design is that it has to be 'non-obvious' to someone involved in the same discipline. Using a whale-like feature on a bicycle rim is practically the definition of 'non-obvious'.

Also, the designs are dissimilar enough to me. A different take from the same inspiration.

Zipp has a directional ramp design to the bumps. (Sawtooth)
Princeton has a smoother non directional flowing hump design.

Seems just a case of greedy capitalism...

How dissimilar they look has little to do with whether or not Princeton is infringing. There is often a lot more claimed in a utility patent than just what you see as the final product.

[Karvalo]

Also, the designs are dissimilar enough to me. A different take from the same inspiration.

Zipp has a directional ramp design to the bumps. (Sawtooth)
Princeton has a smoother non directional flowing hump design.

The specific design of the 454 is not the patent.

[Aeo]

Are they going to sue Light-Bicycle, too?

[joejack951]

Are they going to sue Light-Bicycle, too?

I looked and didn’t see an LB rim with an ‘undulating configuration’. Their Falcon Pro rim has relief cuts in between spokes, not unlike some older aluminum Mavic rims, but viewed in profile it appears all a single height.

[SixThirteen]

I can't wait for Hambini's take, given what he thinks of the sawtooth shape

[TobinHatesYou]

I can't wait for Hambini's take, given what he thinks of the sawtooth shape

Isn't he busy pretending to be sued by yet another company?

[otnemem]

Interesting. Jean-Paul Ballard at Swiss Side did not put a lot of stock in the concept, noting that it works on whales because of the viscosity of their medium, versus ours.

Yes. And Swiss Side are very transparent on their testing and outcomes. Before Zipp brought the first ?5? to market they tested the concept and were underwhelmed. That's was enough for me... But there's more: Zipp used to show off graphs and data of their own tests to the point that it was obnoxious for some. Around the same time they launched the first ?5? they sure brought up lots of claims........but never any data to back it up.
The ones who have the most to profit from the supposed superiority of their wheels offer no proof of such superiority. What does that tell you?

[HenryH]

I can't wait for Hambini's take, given what he thinks of the sawtooth shape

Isn't he busy pretending to be sued by yet another company?

Has he pretended before?

[joejack951]

Interesting. Jean-Paul Ballard at Swiss Side did not put a lot of stock in the concept, noting that it works on whales because of the viscosity of their medium, versus ours.

Yes. And Swiss Side are very transparent on their testing and outcomes. Before Zipp brought the first ?5? to market they tested the concept and were underwhelmed. That's was enough for me... But there's more: Zipp used to show off graphs and data of their own tests to the point that it was obnoxious for some. Around the same time they launched the first ?5? they sure brought up lots of claims........but never any data to back it up.
The ones who have the most to profit from the supposed superiority of their wheels offer no proof of such superiority. What does that tell you?

*Shocking* that a competitor with no license to use the technology, or a similar technology of their own, is downplaying the benefits.

Now I'm not saying there are, or are not, benefits to the whale wheels. But I'm certainly not going to conclude there are no benefits based solely on Swiss Side's remarks. The fact that Princeton chose to risk patent infringement to implement a similar feature on their own wheels tells me that there might be something to it.

[otnemem]

*Shocking* that a competitor with no license to use the technology, or a similar technology of their own, is downplaying the benefits.

Now I'm not saying there are, or are not, benefits to the whale wheels. But I'm certainly not going to conclude there are no benefits based solely on Swiss Side's remarks. The fact that Princeton chose to risk patent infringement to implement a similar feature on their own wheels tells me that there might be something to it.

Burden of proof lies with the party making the claims. Has Zipp offered any proof of their design superiority in the 5 years they've been in the market? Did they even prove the ?5? design is actually superior to the regular U shape as per their claims?

I would caution against extrapolation from conjecture to reach a conclusion. Seems...misguided.

[joejack951]

Burden of proof lies with the party making the claims. Has Zipp offered any proof of their design superiority in the 5 years they've been in the market? Did they even prove the ?5? design is actually superior to the regular U shape as per their claims?

I would caution against extrapolation from conjecture to reach a conclusion. Seems...misguided.

Am I missing something here? I concluded very little, and if anything, what I did conclude agrees with the graph you’ve posted (that there’s possibly something to the whale profile and it is enticing enough that Princeton is willing to risk a lawsuit to utilize it).

[TobinHatesYou]

Burden of proof lies with the party making the claims. Has Zipp offered any proof of their design superiority in the 5 years they've been in the market? Did they even prove the ?5? design is actually superior to the regular U shape as per their claims?

I would caution against extrapolation from conjecture to reach a conclusion. Seems...misguided.

That chart shows a 65/60mm rim performing slightly better than a 58mm rim performing slightly better than a 58/53mm rim when it comes to drag. None of that should surprise you. Zipp has never claimed the 454 is faster than 404... they have chiefly marketed the whale-fin design as improving stability in windy conditions while retaining aero benefits.

[ichobi]

And i dont think Ineos pick wavy princeton wheels , to the dismay of their main sponsor , simply for aesthetic reason. Princeton wheels are also not light nor boast extreme stiffness, leaving only one reason to use which is aerodynamic either outright low overall drag, or easier handling.

Out of all the team that’s anal about their equipment, Sky/Ineos is it. While I don’t care for a lot of their hooh hah marginal gain, they are one of the few teams that appears serious about gear choice. So there should he some benefit to the wavy design.

[otnemem]

Ineos using them makes you believe that they're good. Ok.

Burden of proof lies with the party making the claims. Has Zipp offered any proof of their design superiority in the 5 years they've been in the market? Did they even prove the ?5? design is actually superior to the regular U shape as per their claims?

I would caution against extrapolation from conjecture to reach a conclusion. Seems...misguided.

https://www.princetoncarbon.com/wp-cont ... art-10.png

That chart shows a 65/60mm rim performing slightly better than a 58mm rim performing slightly better than a 58/53mm rim when it comes to drag. None of that should surprise you. Zipp has never claimed the 454 is faster than 404... they have chiefly marketed the whale-fin design as improving stability in windy conditions while retaining aero benefits.

Zipp claims that the overall profile of the Zipp 454 reduces aerodynamic drag in a wind tunnel from previous benchmark wheels in the range of 5 to 10 watt (depending on Yaw angle).

*shrug*