Winspace Hyper

[MariusRO]

@dacian I appreciate your testing and sharing the results here.
I am coming from Bora 50 and I'm expecting the Hypers to be in the same class of speed or a bit faster, considering Hambini's extensive aero tests at 30 and 50kmh - by the way, how would you explain the differences between your testing results and Hambini's (which places the Hypers above Boras at 50kmh)?

Maybe at a >>50Kmh the large carbon spokes tend to affect the aero performance with more than just few watts?

[dacian]

@dacian I appreciate your testing and sharing the results here.
I am coming from Bora 50 and I'm expecting the Hypers to be in the same class of speed or a bit faster, considering Hambini's extensive aero tests at 30 and 50kmh - by the way, how would you explain the differences between your testing results and Hambini's (which places the Hypers above Boras at 50kmh)?

Maybe at a >>50Kmh the large carbon spokes tend to affect the aero performance with more than just few watts?

Tbh, I did'nt do any deep research on Hambini test. However, I do saw the results and it was one of the reason I decided to give Hyper a try. As I previousely mentioned, I do perform the downhill test since 2018 and it is only for my own purpose. I had a lot of aero wheel sets, even before that. I can not see a better way to evaluate the performance of a wheel set in real world, than this kind of test. The only thing that is not covered by this test is the stiffnes and the efficiency of the system (how much energy is preserved or loss thru the wheels). Also I made several mentions regarding a 50kmh "wall", where the Hyper fade, there is no such wall, it's only that, the higher the rotational speed is, the fading is more and more obvious. This means that actually they are slower at almost any speed. Again, I am not talking about when we transfer power thru wheels. From what I felt, after so many wheels I rode, these are stiff and very responsive, I would say one of the stiffest wheel sets I can remember riding. But, sadly I think that is exactly the source of the problem here. They achieved this stiffnes and this level of power transfer eficiency , by using chunky hubs and chunky spokes as if they forget that these supposed to be aero wheels. They also did not account the fact that a deeper profile is stiffer than a shallower one already, so using 4mm wide and almost 2mm thick carbon spokes is an excess. Let's compare it to the Bora which use 2.3 mm wide spokes, same number of them. These perform better aero at same efficiency levels.

Another subject is related to carbon vs steel characteristics, let's say stiffnes (or rigidity)/volume or stiffnes/weight ratios. Carbon spokes have a better stiffnes to weight ratio than forged steel spokes, this is clear, but they a have a worse stiffnes/volume ratio, this means that to have the same stiffnes from a spoke you need a bigger volume carbon spoke (wider, thicker) than a steel one and bigger volume means bad business for aero. I would use these spokes on a climbing wheel set, with a shallow rim, where you need great efficiency, great power transfer at low weights. This means that the 38mm or if they did something shallower with these spoke would be a great climbing wheel set. But if I build on these rims (the 50mm Hyper) on this combination 16x21 spokes I would not use wider than 2.3mm bladed spokes.

Regarding Hambini, I do appreciate him a lot, he is also fun to watch, but I did not forget that he mentioned Hunt wheels as one of the worse performers of his aero test, same Hunt who uses the EXACT rim profile and layout as Hyper on their Hund Ud wheels set, so now the Hunt rim is good?..

[Oms]

Seems even the Hunts have that red/rusty colour in places:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/qhubek ... -for-2021/

Photo at the top of the article.

[HenryH]

Did Hambini comment on those Hunt wheels? If not they obviously can change and improve. I don´t think Hambini ever said Hunt could never make, what he considers to be, good wheels.

Unfortunately I´m not knowledgable enough to have much of a view on the technical aspects of the Hyper wheels. Would be cool if someone had and chipped in - if what dacian is saying makes sense or not. Not saying that because I don´t believe dacian - on the contrary I apreciate his/her posts.

As previously stated I don´t think anyone buying Hyper wheels are expecting them to outperform Bora. It would be cool if they did of course, but also a bit sad as I´m cheering for Campagnolo. I´m also perfectly OK with the wheels potentially not being top notch at speeds above 50kmt. Even for Aero wheels it is much more important how they perform from 25-50 kmt. Any idea why, if I remember correctly, they perform well at lower speeds dacian?

[dacian]

Did Hambini comment on those Hunt wheels? If not they obviously can change and improve. I don´t think Hambini ever said Hunt could never make, what he considers to be, good wheels.

Unfortunately I´m not knowledgable enough to have much of a view on the technical aspects of the Hyper wheels. Would be cool if someone had and chipped in - if what dacian is saying makes sense or not. Not saying that because I don´t believe dacian - on the contrary I apreciate his/her posts.

As previously stated I don´t think anyone buying Hyper wheels are expecting them to outperform Bora. It would be cool if they did of course, but also a bit sad as I´m cheering for Campagnolo. I´m also perfectly OK with the wheels potentially not being top notch at speeds above 50kmt. Even for Aero wheels it is much more important how they perform from 25-50 kmt. Any idea why, if I remember correctly, they perform well at lower speeds dacian?

It's correct, they perform really well at lower speeds and very good in sprints or quick accelerations, i must say that they perform at same level with Bora, but this is just my feeling, I made no mesurements here. They do feel very stiff and responsive. Actually, they feel like Campagnolo Shamal Ultra and I can say it's like a mixed breed between Bora and Shamal. Their shape is aero, but behaviour is of a very stiff climbing or sprinting wheelset

[C36]

Out of curiosity, are all things equal ? Tires and tubes? What width? Since it impacts its integration with the rim.
DT measure the rotational drag difference between 2mm round and DT aérolite to… 1.5w so doubt it’s an explanation (what are exact spokes dimension for the Hypers?)

[Arno1]

For me who has just acquired Hyper 50 rim brake I am, after 400kms traveled, satisfied. No ray noise, for the moment. First impressions are always interesting because they are also based in comparison to your previous wheels. For my part, I consider the wheels as a whole, flat ground, downhill, uphill, against the wind but also the price. It is a compromise of all these parameters. From the start, I felt the stiffness of the wheels on the road. The hub is indeed noisier than my DTSwiss 240. I put a light grease (the rose that I use on the DT ratchet system) but it is more to lubricate than to lower the noise. The big problem was actually installing the GP 5000 but mostly removing them. I wanted to do this before going far. The GP is not easy especially with tubeless ready rims. On other rims, I can do it without a problem but there, after two hours, I had to cut the tire to remove it because it was impossible to dislodge it from the rim rail. So I installed Pirelli Zero that I can mount by hand without level. In 25, they are a little wider than the 5000 in 25. Maybe they will last less long but at least I can remove them.

[HenryH]

Haha. Yeah. I have no idea how I will get my 5000TL off. Interesting that the Zero was that much easier. Not sure what I will do next time around, but will definitely try to avoid the 5000TL - even if I like how they perform now that they are on.

[Arno1]

I specify that it is about 5000 with inner tubes in my case. And that would be my advice for ridres who have 5000s with inner tubes. Check before you go far to see if you can dislodge the tire easily

[Arno1]

I specify that it is about 5000 with inner tubes in my case. And that would be my advice for ridres who have 5000s with inner tubes. Check before you go far to see if you can dislodge the tire easily

[dacian]

Out of curiosity, are all things equal ? Tires and tubes? What width? Since it impacts its integration with the rim.
DT measure the rotational drag difference between 2mm round and DT aérolite to… 1.5w so doubt it’s an explanation (what are exact spokes dimension for the Hypers?)

If you are reffering to my trials, yes of course I used same conditions: Conti 5000 25mm, with both of sets of wheels latex Michellin tubes, obviously same pressure, etc. Hyper uses 4mm wide and 1.5mm (i am not sure)thick spokes. I indicated the spokes as the no 1 guilty, for this lack in the Hyper behaviour, but it may be more complicated than that. If you closely check the hyper 50mm rim profile, it is indeed enough wide at the tire bed, but the general shape section is not a U shape, as the vast majority of high end wheel manufacturer use with many proved advantages (you can do a research on internet). Hyper rim section is more like a rounded V, a combination between old school aero and the modern wide rims

[HenryH]

Wouldn't you think that what you refer to as the width of the spokes is quite irrelevant at speeds above 50kmh? Yaw angle would be quite close to 0 or?

As for the question of weight. I'm clueless at this, but if rotational drag is that influenced by some grams wouldn't that then be very sensitive to the weight of the tyre?

As for testing it with the same setup. That isn't necessarily the correct way of doing it. Some wheels will work better worse with different setups. So to compare wheels one should compare them with the best setup for both. Not sure how much that will matter though. And in this case one couldn't say if this setup is actually optimal for the Hypers and not the Boras - so the difference could be even bigger.

[U24]

Wouldn't you think that what you refer to as the width of the spokes is quite irrelevant at speeds above 50kmh? Yaw angle would be quite close to 0 or?

As for the question of weight. I'm clueless at this, but if rotational drag is that influenced by some grams wouldn't that then be very sensitive to the weight of the tyre?

As for testing it with the same setup. That isn't necessarily the correct way of doing it. Some wheels will work better worse with different setups. So to compare wheels one should compare them with the best setup for both. Not sure how much that will matter though. And in this case one couldn't say if this setup is actually optimal for the Hypers and not the Boras - so the difference could be even bigger.

Yeah, I'm also wondering how big of an impact the width of the spokes are if they are all aligned properly. I mean how big are their surface areas and can they significanly affect aerodynamics?

Regarding the Hunt wheels, wow they look very similar with the Hyper wheels. I can't help but think that they both come from the same factory and are just rebranded.

[GeoffS]

If you closely check the hyper 50mm rim profile, it is indeed enough wide at the tire bed, but the general shape section is not a U shape, as the vast majority of high end wheel manufacturer use with many proved advantages (you can do a research on internet). Hyper rim section is more like a rounded V, a combination between old school aero and the modern wide rims

The shift to U shape profiles is aimed at reducing cross-wind sensitivty (by making them act as less-effective aerofoils), not reducing drag. Hence, for example, Roval using a very rounded profile for their front wheel but more V shaped profile for rear wheel on the Rapide CLX wheelset.

[dacian]

If you closely check the hyper 50mm rim profile, it is indeed enough wide at the tire bed, but the general shape section is not a U shape, as the vast majority of high end wheel manufacturer use with many proved advantages (you can do a research on internet). Hyper rim section is more like a rounded V, a combination between old school aero and the modern wide rims

The shift to U shape profiles is aimed at reducing cross-wind sensitivty (by making them act as less-effective aerofoils), not reducing drag. Hence, for example, Roval using a very rounded profile for their front wheel but more V shaped profile for rear wheel on the Rapide CLX wheelset.

When I first express my impressions about Hyper 50mm, I stated from the start that these are one of the most wild aero wheels in windgusts I had. The first rides were scary almost, in time I managed to tame them, that is why I am not even bring that subject alive anymore. Of course the V or U shape is not so relevant on the rotational drag subject, but it is relevant in the overal system (bike+wheels) movement drag. And finally, bad behaviour in wind gusts, mean bad aero performance, I will quot Hambini, from his test: "Wheels that performed well were noticeably resistant to generating areas of turbulence
Wheels that performed well mitigated generated turbulence quite well"