Zipp 2020

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pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

kervelo wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:29 am
WorkonSunday wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:46 pm
MasterBean wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:35 am
Does anyone know what the 303SE is? It's fitted onto some 2022 spec bikes.

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interesting, can you share a link or screenshot? :beerchug:

EDIT: actually, dont worry i found it. looks like a new hub? 303s has J spoke, this one has straight pull. previously zipp is quite vocal about 303 series can go off road but some, myself included, found the seals to be some what draggy, may be this is more geared towards road?

I wonder if and when the 303 SE will be available? Not holding my breath though, during the covid times it will most likely take some time.
what are those supposed to be?
Edit: it was already explained. Nevermind.

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jarm
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:28 pm

by jarm

dorin wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:19 pm
Thanks Floseph, i though of the same but as is my 4th pair of Zipp wheels i didnt think it can have such a low quality control. I only had NSWs but c'mon even eur 1'700 cannot be treated as low cost...
Got back my 404 rear wheel and now this one is good. Valve is nicely centered and I can inflate the tire with a regular bike pump.

dmccombs
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:37 am

by dmccombs

I recently installed a set of 2022 Zipp 404 Firecrest (23mm internal width, hookless). I have 2 questions I hope the group can help with.

1) I'd like to be able run the GP5000 TR tires. The 404 FC appear to be approved for GP5000 TR 28mm tire and bigger, but not for 25mm. Is Conti being overly cautious exlcudeing the 25mm tire? Are people using the GP500 TR 25mm with the 404 FC in the real world?

2) These wheels seem to be slower/sluggish compared with my old wheels. I am 187lbs right now.
- Current wheels: 404FC with 28mm/25mm Schwalbe Pro One TLE at 70lbs pressure.
- Current wheels: 2016 Campy Bora Ultra with 25mm GP 5000 (tubed) at 90 lbs pressure.
Does anyone have ideas why this could be the case? Some friends said that new wheels have thick grease and that may take a few rides to lossen up. Others suggested that I am just used to high pressures and feeling every bump, and now I have a smoth ride. I don't think its the smooth ride thing however as I am definetly working harder to maintain pace with my normal ride group.

Any insights to either question would be grealy appreciated.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Conti warns against using the 25mm tire on a 23mm wide rim like the 404FC. In practice I bet it's "fine" up to 73psi and the 25mm tire will probably end up being around 27mm wide at that pressure.

Jackofallgrades
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:15 am

by Jackofallgrades

I've asked this question recently in a thread on hookless, as Tobin says it's 'probably' fine, especially if you can run with a bit of margin below the 72.5psi maximum. I know RyanW has customers running 25c contis and 26c specialized rubber on 404/454s. As for the sluggish feeling, the freehub definitely loosens up a bit over the first ride, but after that it should be fine. Could be the lower pressure fooling you. Otherwise, how much sealant did you use? Are the Schwalbes much wider than the rim? That would cost a little aero but shouldn't be noticeable honestly.
Cannondale SSEvo3 'Atticus' - 7.2kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161634

Cannondale Systemsix ’Dante’ - 7.7kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=167144

dmccombs
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:37 am

by dmccombs

Jackofallgrades wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:36 pm
I've asked this question recently in a thread on hookless, as Tobin says it's 'probably' fine, especially if you can run with a bit of margin below the 72.5psi maximum. I know RyanW has customers running 25c contis and 26c specialized rubber on 404/454s. As for the sluggish feeling, the freehub definitely loosens up a bit over the first ride, but after that it should be fine. Could be the lower pressure fooling you. Otherwise, how much sealant did you use? Are the Schwalbes much wider than the rim? That would cost a little aero but shouldn't be noticeable honestly.
Thanks for the info...

The 25mm Schwalbe's arent wider than the Zipp 404 FC. The Zipps are about 27.7mm wide. I used about 50gr or 1.8oz of sealant in each tire.

I'll try putting some more miles on the wheels. They hav 78 miles on them at this point.

I'd love to run the 25mm GP 5000 TR, so I'd still like to hear feedback from others that have done it. Because of my weight, I have to run 25mm tires at 72psi. I don't want to do anything dangerous/stupid however just to gain a watt or two. :wink:

dmccombs
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:37 am

by dmccombs

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:28 am
Conti warns against using the 25mm tire on a 23mm wide rim like the 404FC. In practice I bet it's "fine" up to 73psi and the 25mm tire will probably end up being around 27mm wide at that pressure.
Thanks Tobin.

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ryanw
in the industry
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Location: London

by ryanw

I think I lot of this "sluggish" sensation also comes from looking at where the weight of a wheel is exactly.

Looking at two different wheelsets, with a total weight of around 1,400g, being the Zipp 454s and Roval Rapides.

The Rovals without a doubt feel "snappier", and I can only put this down to where the weight lies. My assumption being that the Rovals must have a much lighter rim (external rotating weight the big factor in acceleration / responsiveness).

Unfortunately neither wheelset are sold as rim only, so it's hard to quantify this, but thinking logically, it makes sense (to me anyway).
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Jackofallgrades
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:15 am

by Jackofallgrades

It should be pointed out that the opposite is true in this case; a heavier rim will feel sluggish as you accelerate, but will feel like it holds onto that speed better during decelerations or lulls in power. From what you said dmccombs, it sounds like you felt an all around deficiency?
Cannondale SSEvo3 'Atticus' - 7.2kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161634

Cannondale Systemsix ’Dante’ - 7.7kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=167144

dmccombs
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:37 am

by dmccombs

Jackofallgrades wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:42 pm
It should be pointed out that the opposite is true in this case; a heavier rim will feel sluggish as you accelerate, but will feel like it holds onto that speed better during decelerations or lulls in power. From what you said dmccombs, it sounds like you felt an all around deficiency?
My old wheels and these zipps are the same weight. Becuase the clincher tire/tube combo weighs a little more that the TL tires, the zipp total wheel/tire combo is a little less than my old Campy setup.

What I see is when I spin the wheels on the rack, the Campys spin for much longer (more rotations), before slowing down and stopping. Something seems to be restricting the spin of the zipps. I've had the brakes checked for rub by 2 shops now. Also, they feel more sluggish on roads and decents I've don hundreds of times.

Either the zipp hubs suck, or the hubs/grease just need a few more miles to loosen up. I would think these 2022 Zipp 404 Hubs are better than my 2016 Campy Bora Ultra hubs, so I hope these just need more miles on them.

kervelo
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:58 am
Location: Finland

by kervelo

In general, the quality of Campagnolo hubs is higher than many other brands.

zaykay
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:14 am

by zaykay

I had Bora WTO 45's before and now new 303 Firecrests. Altough they are 50 grams lighter than Boras they feel more sluggish. IMO being wider and flexier together with worse hubs makes the difference.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

zaykay wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:19 pm
I had Bora WTO 45's before and now new 303 Firecrests. Altough they are 50 grams lighter than Boras they feel more sluggish. IMO being wider and flexier together with worse hubs makes the difference.

Whichever you think will feel more sluggish will usually feel more sluggish. Don't try to explain it without high-precision tools that can measure accelerations, CdA, side forces, etc. because otherwise "feelings" are clouded by psychological factors. The expensive, more premium product almost always wins that battle.

Jackofallgrades
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:15 am

by Jackofallgrades

25c Conti GP5000 S TRs mounted on 454s came up to 26.3mm, a nice match. Needed tyre levels to get them on the rim but on the flipside popped on with just a track pump and no tricks.
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Cannondale SSEvo3 'Atticus' - 7.2kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161634

Cannondale Systemsix ’Dante’ - 7.7kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=167144

by Weenie


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Jackofallgrades
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:15 am

by Jackofallgrades

Checked the wheels today and noticed they are now out of true, a few mm on the front wheel laterally and maybe half that on the rear. They were true to the eye yesterday when initially mounted. Has anyone else experienced this? I know tubeless tyres can affect spoke tension but was surprised nonetheless.
Cannondale SSEvo3 'Atticus' - 7.2kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161634

Cannondale Systemsix ’Dante’ - 7.7kg
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=167144

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