Roval 2020/2021 Road Wheelsets

[alexmcm09]

So two different riders, with different kit, on different bikes, with different components, produced different results.

O.M.G...

100% this, what a bizarre "experiment". And what does "23 watts slower" even mean

[petromyzon]

This is almost as good as the thread where the guy claimed that metal fatigue in his Shimano crankset was costing him 10W based upon his "cognitive-perceptual analysis" or something.....

[Sleeprequired]

So two different riders, with different kit, on different bikes, with different components, produced different results.

O.M.G...

So to be clear my purpose is to decide on a purchase of an sworks sl7 over my current roubaix 2020.

Currently that bike and rider is working 23w harder than me for the same speed in the same conditions.

So.

It's quite simple really.

You put two riders at the same pace, level with each other but far enough apart as to not interfere for a
Given time. The longer the better in terms of comparing the delta.

If one does (for example) 35kph @ 200 w and the other does the same 35kph but it takes the 223w then you have you delta between the two systems & riders of 23w.

A delta isn't strange in and of itself, and to be expected, but 23w is huge.

Try it with a mate with a very similar build, similar bike, similar wheels and I'd be shocked if it was more than 10w.

I recognise that if you've got totally diffferent systems and on is one a TT bike then sure, redicule me. But our kit is aero, bikes are aerodynamically very similar, whee both deep dish, weights the same, same helmet and swapped gear to try and check the differences so there's a bit more to it than either I've mentioned or you've given me credit for.

There's more that we've done that I haven't put in.

I have multiple friends at different heights and weights and over the same course side by side everyone is within about 10-15w delta including one rider who is 25kg lighter and obviously presents a very different profile to the wind. Let's exclude hill rides this is a flat track.

Everyone is very close except this one rider who is 23w which is more than double what you'd expect. The difference is there, I just need to find where it is.

It's sl7 vs 2020 roubaix. At this point I'm saying the roubaix with LB wheels is faster than the sl7 with the rovals by 23w in similar position.

And it was still 13w when he was chewing on the (identical) handlebar and I made sure I was less aero or same.

Still a big delta. And yeah who in their right mind would drop 20k on an sworks to go slower than their current setup.

So is it perfect? No. But I don't have access to a wind tunnel and I'm sure as shit not going to go off the marketing.

**edit - the super obvious choice would be to swap riders and respective setups, but we don't have spare bikes in the correct sizes unfortunately.

So the question im trying to answer is which bike is faster, not get them to 0w necessarily. Ideally I'd like the new bike to be the same or faster, otherwise I won't swap bikes

[aeroisnteverything]

So two different riders, with different kit, on different bikes, with different components, produced different results.

O.M.G...

...
So the question im trying to answer is which bike is faster, not get them to 0w necessarily. Ideally I'd like the new bike to be the same or faster, otherwise I won't swap bikes

Mate, I know you are trying to answer this question, but you are definitely not succeeding. The rider makes such a difference to aero that the frame+wheels is just entirely negligible in that equation. Yes, it's very possible that your buddy IS 20w more efficient than everyone else you ride with, and would remain more efficient on the SL7, the Venge or a 20-year old steel frame so long as you let him keep his position the same. No, you cannot eyeball him vs you and say "he's taller so it's gotta be the bike".

[ryanw]

I didn't have the energy to reply, so thank you for putting it clearly, above

[pmprego]

There are way too many variables. That's one reason many argue in favor os aero testing stuff isolated: just the frame, just the wheels, just this or that. It can be criticized also but that's the only way to know the delta of each component but then they later on interact with each other and all the previous results are then questionable with the final conclusion being: "f*** it, lower your head and push on those pedals"

As a remark: the norcal guy who tried to do some "real world" comparisons between the sl7 and other and wheels and stuff commented in one of those videos that the aethos (the standard for non-aero bike) was like 99.5% as fast as the sl7. In the end... lower your head and push on those pedals

[Sleeprequired]

So two different riders, with different kit, on different bikes, with different components, produced different results.

O.M.G...

...
So the question im trying to answer is which bike is faster, not get them to 0w necessarily. Ideally I'd like the new bike to be the same or faster, otherwise I won't swap bikes

Mate, I know you are trying to answer this question, but you are definitely not succeeding. The rider makes such a difference to aero that the frame+wheels is just entirely negligible in that equation. Yes, it's very possible that your buddy IS 20w more efficient than everyone else you ride with, and would remain more efficient on the SL7, the Venge or a 20-year old steel frame so long as you let him keep his position the same. No, you cannot eyeball him vs you and say "he's taller so it's gotta be the bike".

Yeah I get it. I'm 23w less than him on the roubaix, with the LB rims than him on the SL7 with the rapides.

Then we got it to 13w with a helmet swap (evade II vs Portone) and making him chew the handlebar, so we're in the ballpark.

Now I've swapped the wheels, and my suspicion is, surprise surprise, that a 30mm wide rim is faster through the wind than a 35mm wide rim.

Both running gp5000 25cc with tubolito S-road so RR doesn't come into it.

Aerodynamically presenting a smaller profile into the wind above 26kph (30mm vs 35mm) should be faster.

I'd love to be wrong but I don't think so. Will post results.

It's LB vs the rovals. Personally I'd like the delta to get bigger, which means the rovals are faster.

Ie

[Sleeprequired]

There are way too many variables. That's one reason many argue in favor os aero testing stuff isolated: just the frame, just the wheels, just this or that. It can be criticized also but that's the only way to know the delta of each component but then they later on interact with each other and all the previous results are then questionable with the final conclusion being: "f*** it, lower your head and push on those pedals"

As a remark: the norcal guy who tried to do some "real world" comparisons between the sl7 and other and wheels and stuff commented in one of those videos that the aethos (the standard for non-aero bike) was like 99.5% as fast as the sl7. In the end... lower your head and push on those pedals

Yep this is the what I've been saying to my friends and observing for years. The real differences between say (especially) the roubaix and tarmac in terms of the frame are effectively nothing or at least almost meaningless. Interesting that the aethos has also been thrown into that party.

My comments exclude TT bikes in comparison to road frames.

The biggest differences on those (road) bikes comes down to the wheels. So the venge got the big boys, tarmac gets the next deepest set, and so on down the line.

On top of that the other thing being presented to the wind is the handlebars which have now need added to the tarmac from the venge and they've dropped the venge.

So I've now swapped the LB wheels onto his SL7 knowing we have a 23w approx delta in his natural riding position, and 13w with a tweak to his position and an evade II helmet which makes sense at 5-7w.

So I have changed one variable.

Will be interesting to see how the roubaix goes with the rapides and the sl7 goes with LB56mm.

That is easy to test. Remeber I'm not trying to eliminate every variable. Just test in a consistent enough fashion to see where the differences are.

Again, I recognise that rider position is the number one variable but I've accounted for that now and changed one thing.

The wheels.

[gSporco]

I owned two pairs of Enve 5.6s and sold both shortly after I bought two pairs of Rapides.

Haven't ridden WR56s, but they're 5mm deeper and 4mm shallower, so assume will be very close to the Rapides in straight line speed.

However, I can guarantee you that the Rapides shall handle much better in winds.

Did some very interesting testing today with my 2020 roubaix in 56 with the LB wheels vs a tarmac sl7 52 sworks with roval CL wheels.

We did the testing because my mate has consistently been 20 or so watts higher than me while riding over averages of 10, 20, 60 & 120 minutes and more.

We thought his Assiomas were off, so we swapped them with mine.

We tested on a flat 5k loop in Melbourne at a place called Albert park at a steady 220 watts or so. His stack was lower than mine, he rides the sl7 in a 52 with a much lower stack and I'm on a roubaix with 56mm LB wheels.

We rode side by side but far enough apart to account for all but the last 1 or 2 watts with wind etc.

Roubaix lap 1 - 194w compared to 217w for the SL7

23w in favour of the roubaix vs the sl7 with rapides!

Lap 2 - roubaix 207w vs 220 for the sl7

13w delta win for the roubaix! - in this lap we made sure he was in an aero position and significantly lower than me and still 13w in favour of the roubaix? We also swapped helmets as I've got an evade II helmet And he's using a protone.

We are different heights but present roughly the same frontal area to the wind, me being the taller of the two on the roubaix, track was flat. Roubaix is the heavier bike too by 300g.

So we've had 2 sets of power pedals agree even when swapped. I'm baffled.

We're going to swap out the wheels and see what happens.

But it certainly gives me pause for thought to get my new sl7 sworks and end up slower!! I don't drink the cool aid so I'm not expecting to be that much faster but I'm sure as sh*t not wanting to be 23w slower.

I did a test with my "then" 2 bikes that I owned ( 2020 Cervelo S3 and Aspero). The S3 had Enve 5.6 and 25mm Conti tires with regualr tubes, the Aspero had Firecrests with 35mm Gravelking slicks running Tubeless..

On a 20 mile 2000 feet of elevation gain loop the S3 was faster by 3 min. Rode each bike 3 times each over 6 days.. Then I rode the Aspero with the Enve wheels and was within 1 minute of the S3. What did this tell me? Nothing lol, I dont race so marginal aero gains mean nothing to me. Ive since sold both bikes and ride the least aero bike out there now (Aethos with the Firecrests and 30mm slicks), after riding and working on my fitness I put up better numbers than I did 5 months ago with the other bikes.

So, I realize that the this post helps nonone, but for those of you who don't race but want to be a better version of yourself, you cant beat self improvement... the bike and aero components can only do so much... just ride what puts a smile on your face

[spartan]

the roval cl have round spokes or bladed?

tires/pressure of the two wheelsets.

[Sleeprequired]

the roval cl have round spokes or bladed?

tires/pressure of the two wheelsets.

The cl I believe have rounded spokes and are heavier too. Pressures both 80psi gp5000 tubolito S-road.

I took my bike for a spin with the rovals instead of my LB's. I have my impressions but no data so I'll refrain from stating them. Will cover my ass as well, especially here which is fair enough.

Tomorrow I'm comparing again in a side by side test with our exisiting data set with only the wheel as a variable.

And conditions too, but I can't control the weather and it looks similar enough and the track is a loop too so a change in wind direction isn't the end of the world.

[TobinHatesYou]

Frontal area isn’t only about height. He might have significantly broader shoulders or pedal with varus knees. His elbows might be angling out. What kind of tires are on each bike?

[pmprego]

Frontal area isn’t only about height. He might have significantly broader shoulders or pedal with varus knees. His elbows might be angling out. What kind of tires are on each bike?

If they are that similar, they can also switch bikes. If the difference comes from the bikes, even after switching bikes the difference will still be there

[petromyzon]

Most power meters take a while to bed in so if you are swapping them this is another source of error.

[refthimos]

Most power meters take a while to bed in so if you are swapping them this is another source of error.

Do we need any more?!?