Parcours Strade

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pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

hambini wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:37 pm
I don't think there is anywhere else in the world where a forum would argue that an object that is wider (and has a bigger frontal area) would be more aerodynamic than a narrow one.

:Rollseyes in disbelief.

You don't need a PHD in aerodynamics to see the marketing spin.
Hambini, we had this argument before.

W.r.t. to your statement you're right. I don't have a phd in that and I can imagine that a wider frontal area has more drag. I'm just saying that even your test to hunt's wheels were not on one of these latest models. Not the parcours. Not the latest roval's. As you said, you test what people provides you.

The problem with these marketing claims is not having independent testing. It'll never be perfect and cover all scenarios (that's simple impossible) but it'd be a step up.

What I argue is that other companies (at least some) also have very good people working there, with knowledge in aerodynamics and all. And as a way of living, me, I don't entirely refute someone else's knowledge that easily. Actually, as a way of living, by default, I consider my knowledge or ability average which already makes me listen to the arguments of others and wonder if they saw someting i've missed.

It's so not personally that I've already asked for a borrowed vernier to measure my bb so i can put an order for one of your bb :)

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hambini
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Location: Cologne, Germany

by hambini

I'm not picking at you personally, I'm just saying that the bike world as a whole pedals the myth that wider is faster. If I were to do that in an aeroplane forum, I would be shot down.

EVERY TT rider that has been in a wind tunnel where I have been present uses a narrow tyre. I appreciate there is an offset against rolling resistance but the aero gain is far more above 30kmh.

I think we are going to go full circle like cranksets. BB30 came out with "increased heel clearance", that went out the window and we are back to 90mm axles.

Hambini
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Polluting YouTube since 2016 - views expressed are my own...

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

hambini wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:20 pm
I'm not picking at you personally, I'm just saying that the bike world as a whole pedals the myth that wider is faster. If I were to do that in an aeroplane forum, I would be shot down.

EVERY TT rider that has been in a wind tunnel where I have been present uses a narrow tyre. I appreciate there is an offset against rolling resistance but the aero gain is far more above 30kmh.

I think we are going to go full circle like cranksets. BB30 came out with "increased heel clearance", that went out the window and we are back to 90mm axles.

Hambini
And without being able to test, does the parcour V shape rear wheel makes more sense than the u shaped? The v shaped was supposedly left behind because the U shaped ones were theoretically superior.

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nycebo
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Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: New York, NY

by nycebo

Actually, it would also depend on the leading profile of the tour mounted to that wheel. Flatter would be less aero than rounder or more sharply pointed.

However what's lost on these discussions about width is how much forward momentum is lost running thin tires at high pressures. Especially on the awful roads in NYC.

There's a delicate balance between all these metrics and a rider should select what best meets their demands.

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nycebo
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: New York, NY

by nycebo

PS, v shaped wheels were supposedly less preferable than u shape because of cross winds and off angle attacks.

parcourswheels
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:04 pm
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by parcourswheels

nycebo wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:30 am
PS, v shaped wheels were supposedly less preferable than u shape because of cross winds and off angle attacks.
Hi - just to explain on this one. You're absolutely right that one of the drivers for moving away from a more V-shaped rim was a) the cross wind handling performance & b) the higher-yaw performance. However, it is (and always has been) a good option for lower-yaw performance.

As part of our development process for the Strade, we looked at the wind conditions independently at the front & rear wheels. The main observation from this testing was that the yaw angle at the rear wheel was consistently lower than at the front. Hence why the front & rear rim profiles on the Strade are very different.

In addition, it's the front wheel that drives how stable the handling is for a particular wheelset as this is where the wheel is free to turn on its axis (i.e. with the bars). So handling performance was a real focus for the front wheel, whereas for the rear wheel we could focus more on delivering the fastest possible rim profile for the observed wind conditions.

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nycebo
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Location: New York, NY

by nycebo

Parcourswheels, thanks for the response. I figured exactly as you did for why you used u at front and v at back. Makes good sense and I liked what I learned at your site. Alas, I'm not in the market for wheels presently but I'd surely give you guys a try next time round. Your Strade wheels appear to be an excellent value.

Out of curiosity and since you kindly popped up on the thread, how would you rate their comfort? Many riders eschew comfort for performance, but on long rides I find it critically important for maintaining pace, aero and lightness be damned.

For example, I have ridden Enve wheels and enjoyed them but found them very, very stiff. Zipp, on the other hand, seemed basically as aero and light, but were MUCH, MUCH more comfortable.

Thanks again for chiming in.

parcourswheels
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by parcourswheels

No worries, happy to help. With a lot of our testing we try to make sure it's not purely product-focused, so that riders who aren't on our wheels can still benefit from some of the data.

As for comfort, this can be quite subjective. Some riders want a super-stiff wheel whereas others prefer more compliance. We've aimed to strike a balance that provides a responsive ride whilst not providing too much stiffness where it's not needed. One of the main motivations (along with rolling resistance benefits) for designing around a 28mm tyre was to allow for a more comfortable ride - that's one of the major factors in delivering a smooth ride.

For what it's worth, one of the most common pieces of feedback (from test riders, customers & journalists) has been around smooth ride quality. So hopefully we've done a good job there!

BenScott144
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 4:00 pm

by BenScott144

Also looking at these wheels myself (A toss-up between these and Borg 45 Discs).

For the Parcours:
- I like the aero development and logic (Even if I don't agree with the "wider is more aero" I would like to stick to 28mm tyres, so finding the best wheelset at this width makes sense)
- Pro triathletes are using them (Sponsored athletes on the website at least)

For the Borg:
- Come tubeless-ready and fitted with tyres (although really 25mm is the best width it seems for these wheels)
- I trust the hubs much more (Miche (Or carbon-ti if money is spent) rather than Parcours own brand)
- Malcolm has been doing this for longer than Parcours (I like to support new brands, but it's also nice to know someone won't disappear overnight)

Also considered the new Zipp 303S at this price point, but the hookless rim limiting tyre choice was a real bummer.
Does anyone have anything good to add to sway me one way or the other? Going on a Scott Foil 20 Disc and looking to fit GP5000TL.


Edit to add:
I wonder if I could hit the best of both worlds and get the Parcour Strade rims built onto some different hubs (Carbon-Ti / DT / Miche)

Cycomanic
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:10 pm

by Cycomanic

alanyu wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:04 am
pmprego wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:46 am
alanyu wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:34 am
emotive wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:32 am

Plenty of aero testing of wider wheels over the last 3 years by DT Swiss, Enve, Zipp, Hunt, and now Parcours. Do you think all these companies are fabricating their aero test results for marketing purposes?
What are u smoking? wider = extremely wide?

Dt swiss/SwissSide follows the airfoil rule of the width which is not really wide in today's range, e.g. 48 height 25 ext. width.
Enve Ses 4.5 + 25C tires is more aero than AR + 30C tires which is optimaized for mixed road
Zipp reduces from 27-28 of the former version to 25-27 of the current.

As to hunt? Should @hambini give you a lesson?
People really stop using those hambini references. I'm not arguing against his knowledge but he's not the only PhD in aerodynamics in the world. He's just not. So don't argue that all the others out there are dumb af because they are not. They did exactly the same he did. Believing he is above and beyond everyone else is even worst than believing companies marketing claims.
My example is used to refute what I quote. If you could give me a link of another aero test on hunt's extremely wide wheels vs other brands' from a third party, I will appreciate it, as I don't 100% trust hambini's test, which is not as transparent as, e.g. tour's test as long as what tested is not from a german brand.

In what way are the tour tests more transparent than the hambini tests? I would say that they are pretty much on the same level of transparency. As a side note, I'm pretty certain that tour also concluded that wider wheels are not more aero (Supporting your point).

BenScott144
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 4:00 pm

by BenScott144

BenScott144 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:12 am
Also looking at these wheels myself (A toss-up between these and Borg 45 Discs).

For the Parcours:
- I like the aero development and logic (Even if I don't agree with the "wider is more aero" I would like to stick to 28mm tyres, so finding the best wheelset at this width makes sense)
- Pro triathletes are using them (Sponsored athletes on the website at least)

For the Borg:
- Come tubeless-ready and fitted with tyres (although really 25mm is the best width it seems for these wheels)
- I trust the hubs much more (Miche (Or carbon-ti if money is spent) rather than Parcours own brand)
- Malcolm has been doing this for longer than Parcours (I like to support new brands, but it's also nice to know someone won't disappear overnight)

Also considered the new Zipp 303S at this price point, but the hookless rim limiting tyre choice was a real bummer.
Does anyone have anything good to add to sway me one way or the other? Going on a Scott Foil 20 Disc and looking to fit GP5000TL.


Edit to add:
I wonder if I could hit the best of both worlds and get the Parcour Strade rims built onto some different hubs (Carbon-Ti / DT / Miche)
Good news! Got in touch with Parcours and Dav quickly got back to me.

They'd build Strade wheels with different hubs just with a custom surcharge and a bit of lead time, now more decisions to make!

DT 350 + £150
DT 240 + £285
DT 240 EXP + £350
Carbon TI + >£500 (estimated)

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

BenScott144 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:05 pm
BenScott144 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:12 am
Also looking at these wheels myself (A toss-up between these and Borg 45 Discs).

For the Parcours:
- I like the aero development and logic (Even if I don't agree with the "wider is more aero" I would like to stick to 28mm tyres, so finding the best wheelset at this width makes sense)
- Pro triathletes are using them (Sponsored athletes on the website at least)

For the Borg:
- Come tubeless-ready and fitted with tyres (although really 25mm is the best width it seems for these wheels)
- I trust the hubs much more (Miche (Or carbon-ti if money is spent) rather than Parcours own brand)
- Malcolm has been doing this for longer than Parcours (I like to support new brands, but it's also nice to know someone won't disappear overnight)

Also considered the new Zipp 303S at this price point, but the hookless rim limiting tyre choice was a real bummer.
Does anyone have anything good to add to sway me one way or the other? Going on a Scott Foil 20 Disc and looking to fit GP5000TL.


Edit to add:
I wonder if I could hit the best of both worlds and get the Parcour Strade rims built onto some different hubs (Carbon-Ti / DT / Miche)
Good news! Got in touch with Parcours and Dav quickly got back to me.

They'd build Strade wheels with different hubs just with a custom surcharge and a bit of lead time, now more decisions to make!

DT 350 + £150
DT 240 + £285
DT 240 EXP + £350
Carbon TI + >£500 (estimated)
That's total surcharge, I guess, isn't it?

BenScott144
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 4:00 pm

by BenScott144

pmprego wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:38 pm
BenScott144 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:05 pm
BenScott144 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:12 am
Also looking at these wheels myself (A toss-up between these and Borg 45 Discs).

For the Parcours:
- I like the aero development and logic (Even if I don't agree with the "wider is more aero" I would like to stick to 28mm tyres, so finding the best wheelset at this width makes sense)
- Pro triathletes are using them (Sponsored athletes on the website at least)

For the Borg:
- Come tubeless-ready and fitted with tyres (although really 25mm is the best width it seems for these wheels)
- I trust the hubs much more (Miche (Or carbon-ti if money is spent) rather than Parcours own brand)
- Malcolm has been doing this for longer than Parcours (I like to support new brands, but it's also nice to know someone won't disappear overnight)

Also considered the new Zipp 303S at this price point, but the hookless rim limiting tyre choice was a real bummer.
Does anyone have anything good to add to sway me one way or the other? Going on a Scott Foil 20 Disc and looking to fit GP5000TL.


Edit to add:
I wonder if I could hit the best of both worlds and get the Parcour Strade rims built onto some different hubs (Carbon-Ti / DT / Miche)
Good news! Got in touch with Parcours and Dav quickly got back to me.

They'd build Strade wheels with different hubs just with a custom surcharge and a bit of lead time, now more decisions to make!

DT 350 + £150
DT 240 + £285
DT 240 EXP + £350
Carbon TI + >£500 (estimated)
That's total surcharge, I guess, isn't it?
Yeah so wheel + hub
(So 1350 for Strade with DT 240 EXP hubs)

BenScott144
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 4:00 pm

by BenScott144

I'm going for it :)
Parcours Strade on DT 240EXP Hubs

Will report back when they arrive!

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

BenScott144 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:42 am
I'm going for it :)
Parcours Strade on DT 240EXP Hubs

Will report back when they arrive!
Tells us.... The weight of course!!

I'm curious to know what is the weight difference compared to the regular parcours hub.

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