How deep is too deep?

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
amngwlvs
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:45 pm
Location: Barrie, Ontario

by amngwlvs

Hey WW!

I've been toying with the idea of getting some affordable deeper section carbon wheels to put on my 2015 Propel and use it as a crit bike but so far haven't pulled the trigger. Yesterday a buddy offered to sell me his Easton EC90 TT tubs with Continental Compitition tires for about $600USD.

My first thought, as I think it should have been, was, "these things are too damn deep" but for flat crits, are they? Originally I was planning on getting something around 60mm.

Secondly, they aren't on the UCI approved wheels list that I can tell - but then again, neither are the Giant PA-2 wheels that came on the Propel (unless I'm reading an entirely wrong list which is very possible).

Should I get something shallower and more versatile or pull the trigger?
2018 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 0 Disc
2015 Giant Propel Advanced 2
2013 Trek 520

by Weenie


Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

IMO 60mm is the sweet spot. Fast, stable and reasonable weights.

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themidge
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by themidge

I wonder, does the sweet spot for rim depth depend on more on rider weight or the shape of the rims? It seems to me that maybe smaller riders will struggle on all deep rims and big riders will be okay on most rim shapes.
Would love to be wrong coz I want to look cool too :twisted: .

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Alexbn921
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

60 is the biggest I would recommend and even then it might be too much. I like 50mm as it gives you the best balance of speed and control in wind. The bigger you are the deeper you can go. Also your riding conditions will dictate depth.

Slammed
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:32 am

by Slammed

65mm is the deepest you're allowed to ride in bunch races. You could maybe throw an 80mm on the rear but you definitely shouldn't be running anything deeper than 65 in the front anyways. I built up some 65/65 wheels for Crits and they are great.

alcatraz
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

The aero benefit between 60 and 88 is small and you'll only get it when you're alone or in front of a bunch at constant speed.

When you're accelerating you'll be held back if you run heavy wheels.

Something like bontrager xxx 60 tubulars are probably hard to beat. Light and aero. Good at constant speed and attacks.

If your average speed is around 30, deep wheels are pointless. You need to be able to pull speeds above 35 and preferably 40+ km/h to make use of them.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4188
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

amngwlvs wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:59 pm
Hey WW!

I've been toying with the idea of getting some affordable deeper section carbon wheels to put on my 2015 Propel and use it as a crit bike but so far haven't pulled the trigger. Yesterday a buddy offered to sell me his Easton EC90 TT tubs with Continental Compitition tires for about $600USD.

My first thought, as I think it should have been, was, "these things are too damn deep" but for flat crits, are they? Originally I was planning on getting something around 60mm.

Secondly, they aren't on the UCI approved wheels list that I can tell - but then again, neither are the Giant PA-2 wheels that came on the Propel (unless I'm reading an entirely wrong list which is very possible).

Should I get something shallower and more versatile or pull the trigger?

I'll be devil's advocate.

I currently use ENVE SES 5.6s for just about all crits, but I have 7.8s on the way and will probably be using them for all but the hilliest crits (ramps more over 20s >5-6% grade.) On windy days I will probably just use a "5.8" configuration. The front wheel from the 7.8 set will also end up going on my eventual TT bike. I weigh 61-63kg / 134-139lbs depending on how shitty my diet is any given month.

Team Clif Bar is a west coast based elite amateur crit team that races almost exclusively on 7.8s. A lot of fast amateurs here use deep wheels in crits like 808s, 7.8s, etc. It really hasn't been cause for drama. If it's super windy that day, they swap wheels. If it's not windy that day, go deeeeep.

UCI legality simply isn't going to matter unless you're, uh, doing UCI races. Nobody is going to check.

I have not heard of a rule limiting the depth of wheels in mass start races in the US. The only rule I know of is no disc wheels.

On the other hand, I have to ask. Are you using a good aero helmet like an Evade, Ballista, Vanquish? Are you using aero socks and aero shoes like the Empire SLX? Are you at least using a 2in1 kit like a Castelli San Remo? Are you taking off your bottle cages on all but the hottest days? Any of these will amount to more aero gains...for less money spent.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

TobinHatesYou wrote:
amngwlvs wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:59 pm
Hey WW!

I've been toying with the idea of getting some affordable deeper section carbon wheels to put on my 2015 Propel and use it as a crit bike but so far haven't pulled the trigger. Yesterday a buddy offered to sell me his Easton EC90 TT tubs with Continental Compitition tires for about $600USD.

My first thought, as I think it should have been, was, "these things are too damn deep" but for flat crits, are they? Originally I was planning on getting something around 60mm.

Secondly, they aren't on the UCI approved wheels list that I can tell - but then again, neither are the Giant PA-2 wheels that came on the Propel (unless I'm reading an entirely wrong list which is very possible).

Should I get something shallower and more versatile or pull the trigger?

I'll be devil's advocate.

I currently use ENVE SES 5.6s for just about all crits, but I have 7.8s on the way and will probably be using them for all but the hilliest crits (ramps more over 20s >5-6% grade.) On windy days I will probably just use a "5.8" configuration. The front wheel from the 7.8 set will also end up going on my eventual TT bike. I weigh 61-63kg / 134-139lbs depending on how shitty my diet is any given month.

Team Clif Bar is a west coast based elite amateur crit team that races almost exclusively on 7.8s. A lot of fast amateurs here use deep wheels in crits like 808s, 7.8s, etc. It really hasn't been cause for drama. If it's super windy that day, they swap wheels. If it's not windy that day, go deeeeep.

UCI legality simply isn't going to matter unless you're, uh, doing UCI races. Nobody is going to check.

I have not heard of a rule limiting the depth of wheels in mass start races in the US. The only rule I know of is no disc wheels.

On the other hand, I have to ask. Are you using a good aero helmet like an Evade, Ballista, Vanquish? Are you using aero socks and aero shoes like the Empire SLX? Are you at least using a 2in1 kit like a Castelli San Remo? Are you taking off your bottle cages on all but the hottest days? Any of these will amount to more aero gains...for less money spent.
The 7.8s are fun and properly fast feeling wheels, I'd love a 5 front for windy days tho. The only downside is the 7 is noticeably more twitchy if you're sitting up with no hands than a 404/C60 And more like a first gen 808FC, no issue for racing but does make the to and from rides a little less relaxed.

To the OP, If you want something properly versatile then it's hard to beat the 303/4.5/XXX4 type wheels.

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Marin
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by Marin

I'm on wide 60s now and they are more stable than the narrow-ish 50s I had before.

amngwlvs
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:45 pm
Location: Barrie, Ontario

by amngwlvs

Nefarious86 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:53 am
IMO 60mm is the sweet spot. Fast, stable and reasonable weights.
Based on what I've seen and read I would tend to concur, granted I have no real world experience riding them.
themidge wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:22 am
I wonder, does the sweet spot for rim depth depend on more on rider weight or the shape of the rims? It seems to me that maybe smaller riders will struggle on all deep rims and big riders will be okay on most rim shapes.
Would love to be wrong coz I want to look cool too :twisted: .
I would assume that smaller riders would get pushed around on deep wheels more than larger riders but at 190lbs I'm not exactly built for climbing :lol:
alcatraz wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:31 am
The aero benefit between 60 and 88 is small and you'll only get it when you're alone or in front of a bunch at constant speed.

When you're accelerating you'll be held back if you run heavy wheels.

Something like bontrager xxx 60 tubulars are probably hard to beat. Light and aero. Good at constant speed and attacks.

If your average speed is around 30, deep wheels are pointless. You need to be able to pull speeds above 35 and preferably 40+ km/h to make use of them.
My race pace is somewhere around 35 but I could definitely use any aero help I can get when speeds push up higher than that on some of the straights. I'd love to look at something like the Bontragers but this isn't my main bike, more of a budget crit/spare bike so if not these Easton's it would likely be some 60mm China clinchers.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:17 am
I'll be devil's advocate.

I currently use ENVE SES 5.6s for just about all crits, but I have 7.8s on the way and will probably be using them for all but the hilliest crits (ramps more over 20s >5-6% grade.) On windy days I will probably just use a "5.8" configuration. The front wheel from the 7.8 set will also end up going on my eventual TT bike. I weigh 61-63kg / 134-139lbs depending on how shitty my diet is any given month.

Team Clif Bar is a west coast based elite amateur crit team that races almost exclusively on 7.8s. A lot of fast amateurs here use deep wheels in crits like 808s, 7.8s, etc. It really hasn't been cause for drama. If it's super windy that day, they swap wheels. If it's not windy that day, go deeeeep.

UCI legality simply isn't going to matter unless you're, uh, doing UCI races. Nobody is going to check.

I have not heard of a rule limiting the depth of wheels in mass start races in the US. The only rule I know of is no disc wheels.

On the other hand, I have to ask. Are you using a good aero helmet like an Evade, Ballista, Vanquish? Are you using aero socks and aero shoes like the Empire SLX? Are you at least using a 2in1 kit like a Castelli San Remo? Are you taking off your bottle cages on all but the hottest days? Any of these will amount to more aero gains...for less money spent.
Thanks for the reply - regarding the UCI races they are sanctioned by the UCI and require a UCI license but I'd be racing Cat 4 so I seriously doubt there is going to be a stink over them but would hate to have one of the race organizers have an issue with them on the day of.

Regarding kit:
Helmet - No, POC Octal (though I was looking at an Evade, just didn't pull the trigger).
Aero Socks - No, Rapha Pro Team, regular length.
Aero Shoes - Yes, Empire ACC.
2in Kit - No, Rapha bibs and Rapha Pro Team Aero Jersey.
Removing Cages - No, still leave both cages on but only take one bottle. Removing one (or both) is a good idea though, thanks.

There are certainly lower hanging fruit than the wheels - they just happened to be offered to me for what seemed like a reasonable price.

Thanks for the input!
Nefarious86 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:57 am
The 7.8s are fun and properly fast feeling wheels, I'd love a 5 front for windy days tho. The only downside is the 7 is noticeably more twitchy if you're sitting up with no hands than a 404/C60 And more like a first gen 808FC, no issue for racing but does make the to and from rides a little less relaxed.

To the OP, If you want something properly versatile then it's hard to beat the 303/4.5/XXX4 type wheels.
Damn those pics make me want to get an Allez Sprint! I could certainly see wheels depth like that making rides less relaxed but being my back up bike I'm not super worried about it. If we're going properly versatile I'd probably put 4.5AR's on my TCR and call it a day!
2018 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 0 Disc
2015 Giant Propel Advanced 2
2013 Trek 520

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LouisN
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

amngwlvs wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:59 pm
Hey WW!

I've been toying with the idea of getting some affordable deeper section carbon wheels to put on my 2015 Propel and use it as a crit bike but so far haven't pulled the trigger. Yesterday a buddy offered to sell me his Easton EC90 TT tubs with Continental Compitition tires for about $600USD.

My first thought, as I think it should have been, was, "these things are too damn deep" but for flat crits, are they? Originally I was planning on getting something around 60mm.

Secondly, they aren't on the UCI approved wheels list that I can tell - but then again, neither are the Giant PA-2 wheels that came on the Propel (unless I'm reading an entirely wrong list which is very possible).

Should I get something shallower and more versatile or pull the trigger?
EC90TT are pretty light for their profile. Price is not bad if condition is mint, and if the tubs are new. You should have lots of fun riding those wheels in fast rides or criteriums.

Louis :)

WorkonSunday
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm

by WorkonSunday

for front, 64mm like roval and knot would be the deepest i go in open road. if closed road/triathlon then i would consider 80mm but even then it will have to be a very flat day. for the back, 80mm then jump to disc wheel. not too bother for most riding but total pain when it comes to out of saddle climbs.
In the house: Colnago V1r, Colnago A1r, Wilier Cento1 Air, Scott Scale 700SL, Bianchi FSE, Colnago Concept, Colnago A1r, Specialized Ruze Pro, Wilier GTR, Argon 18 E117 Tri+, Brompton B75

amngwlvs
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:45 pm
Location: Barrie, Ontario

by amngwlvs

LouisN wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:43 pm
EC90TT are pretty light for their profile. Price is not bad if condition is mint, and if the tubs are new. You should have lots of fun riding those wheels in fast rides or criteriums.

Louis :)
Thanks Louis! Condition is good on both wheels and tires - he said I can borrow them so I may have to run over and pick them up for a test ride! Where in Canada are you from?
2018 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 0 Disc
2015 Giant Propel Advanced 2
2013 Trek 520

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LouisN
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

5 hrs drive north east of MOntréal, Qc. ( always a 3 hrs drive too far away from any bike event .... :( :lol: .........)

Louis :)

rides4beer
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:27 am
Location: SC

by rides4beer

Everyone is different, but I have 46mm deep rims that I ride all the time, and 88mm rims for TTs. I'm 185lbs, have zero issues with the 46's, in any weather, in a group, etc. But I wouldn't ride the 88's in a group, I can handle them, but a good gust will still push me pretty good. For me, the 88's are solo only, but as always, ymmv.

by Weenie


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