Looking for a stiffer wheelset

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I was looking at RAR's test from 2008 about wheels stiffness and suddenly i got this urge of a stiffer wheelset.
However, i guess there's really no way to get any data of this?
Factory built VS custom built.

Anyway, the winner in the 2008 test was Mavic CCU. Quite funny since i owned the 2015 version.
I decided to sell them as i at the same time rode a wider rim wheelset, which i felt was more planted.

Leaving that behind i wonder, how would i know what is really going to be a "step up" in (particularly) rear wheel stiffness?
Again, since i doubt i get any data to back it up.

I would look at 38-45 mm, clincher/ tubeless and rim brake.
For a rear wheel i could stretch up to 28 spokes if that would make things better!?
17-18 mm internally and rather a wider outer width (26-28 mm)

Thing is, i am rather heavy (pending between 80-85 Kgs).

Any and all tips would be appreciated!
Last edited by wheelsONfire on Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

OK let me make this simple. I build. Variety of wheels and the stiffest but a good margin is the kinlin Xr31t rims on Miche Primato hub or Shimano dura ace laced with Sapim CX force on 24h form.
The front wheel is 18h or 20h with CX rays.

There is no give in the rear wheel or the front.

I should do a gimmick video of placing all my weight on the rim while the wheel is resting on the nds end cap and then showing or has not gone out of true. That's a gimmick and I don't like gimmicks

I have tried the 28 spoke version and to be honest I will drop it. It does not seem to add anything but extra mass.

I am 85kg. I am Not heavy so wash your mouth out.

Deeper wheels can be just as stiff but you need thicker spokes to eliminate brake rub. Luckily deeper wheels have better bracing angles and small changes there make a difference.

RAR article is a decent one but old. The general premise is stiffer wheels are more relaible as they MonMise tension changes in the spokes and feel lighter than they are. That my take anyway. It seems to hold true.

by Weenie


Pinguin
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by Pinguin

bm0p700f wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:12 am
OK let me make this simple. I build. Variety of wheels and the stiffest but a good margin is the kinlin Xr31t rims on Miche Primato hub or Shimano dura ace laced with Sapim CX force on 24h form.
The front wheel is 18h or 20h with CX rays.

There is no give in the rear wheel or the front.

I should do a gimmick video of placing all my weight on the rim while the wheel is resting on the nds end cap and then showing or has not gone out of true. That's a gimmick and I don't like gimmicks

I have tried the 28 spoke version and to be honest I will drop it. It does not seem to add anything but extra mass.

I am 85kg. I am Not heavy so wash your mouth out.

Deeper wheels can be just as stiff but you need thicker spokes to eliminate brake rub. Luckily deeper wheels have better bracing angles and small changes there make a difference.

RAR article is a decent one but old. The general premise is stiffer wheels are more relaible as they MonMise tension changes in the spokes and feel lighter than they are. That my take anyway. It seems to hold true.
Is there a difference in stiffnes when using Rar Raf 12 between Miche or Dura Ace Hubs?

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Flange spacing are similar so bracing angles are the same/lateral, radial and torsional stiffness are equivalent. The only thing wrong with he bitex hubs is I don't have the CX force spokes in the lengths required to use them . That shorter bearing life. I just have no tollerance for that even though for a light cheaper hub the bitex rat/raf12 are respectable. Personally I like bearing that outlast or nearly out last the rim.

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kgt
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by kgt

In terms of stiffness two of the best options are LW Meilenstein C 24 E or Corima MCC WS+ 47. LWs are lighter.

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C36
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by C36

« Easy » give up on the ultra light spokes, ban the CX-ray / aerolight and switch to the bigger gauge type (Aerocomp). That’s a good +10% stiffness there.
On http://www.rouesartisanales.com you have a lot of lab data Adrien from RaR wheels did (In french but google is you friend there)
Another element is to go back to 28 spokes on the rear wheel. I have the lab data somewhere but if I had to rely on my memory, I would bet on another 10%+ stiffness.


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Multebear
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by Multebear

wheelsONfire wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:23 am

suddenly i got this urge of a stiffer wheelset.
However, i guess there's really no way to get any data of this?
Any reason you want stiffer wheels? Do you have brakerub? Or other problems?

Alexandrumarian
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by Alexandrumarian

I have two wheel sets: a Bora 35 tub which has 21 triplet rear and 18 radial front; a home made dtswiss classic rims, 32 3x rear, 28 2x front, aerolite spokes. I don't feel much lateral difference with the rear wheels, but the front Bora rubs very easily when I stand up and stomp the pedals (I am often over 95Kg) There is a clear difference when pushing with the finger too, definitely harder to move the 28 spoke wheel into the brakepads.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Have you got any play in the hub? I pretty much always give the Boras a little adjustment after the first few hundred miles, or when I notice that initial play that typically results when new. Or... are your brake pads a little on the close side? Just a couple quick checks you may want to look at if you haven’t already.
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dim
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by dim

Alexandrumarian wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:41 pm
I have two wheel sets: a Bora 35 tub which has 21 triplet rear and 18 radial front; a home made dtswiss classic rims, 32 3x rear, 28 2x front, aerolite spokes. I don't feel much lateral difference with the rear wheels, but the front Bora rubs very easily when I stand up and stomp the pedals (I am often over 95Kg) There is a clear difference when pushing with the finger too, definitely harder to move the 28 spoke wheel into the brakepads.
skewers? ... try something like the Dura Ace skewers .... a bit heavier but very good
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

An above post has confused lateral stiff was with brake rub. I could build you two wheels with the same lateral stiffness but one rubs brakes easily and the other does not.

Blunty the two are not related. I have explained the realtionship so many times it gotten boring now.

The reply also has not a clue.

Colnago gave a better response assuming the issue is setup.

Alexandrumarian
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by Alexandrumarian

Whether I want it or not, when I read someone complaining about stiffness (not even mentioning the word lateral) I think about brake rub. And for that, more spokes seem intuitively a bit better, assuming similar spokes and decent hub geometry. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but lets imagine two sets of wheels. Same rims, hubs and spokes but one in 32 3x and the other 24 2x. How will the brake rub be?


Cal, hub feels tight and I set the pads at 2mm, maybe a tad more in the rear. I only hear/get the noise in front when i stand up and mash it hard. More distance will take away any noise but I hate the wasted lever travel. Campy skewers.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

More spoke make a wheel stiffer but raise the contribution of spokes to overall stiffnes, that means they can more easily bend the rim to keep it between the brake tracks.

Deeper rims are stiffer and less easily bend so a stiff wheel can rub the pads. Hense why it wrong to confuse brake rub with a lack of lateral stiffness of the wheel. It actually got nothing to do with it. A shallow flexible Tim like the h pluson TB14 with 32 spokes has good radial stifness but low lateral stiffnes yet it won't run the pads because the spokes can easily bend the rim when you side load.


Rim and spoke stifness need to complement each other. the stiffer the rim the higher the contribution the spokes have to make to keep the rim from rubbing.

Classic rims need higher spoke counts otherwise the lateral and radially stifness is woeful and the spokes faigue and fail.

Everytime this question come up the same explanation has to repeated. Perhaps the forum needs a wheel faq. A list of questions and a set of stock and agreed responses.

your Bora's spokes simply can't bend the rim to stop it rubbing the pads when you side load. Essentially it needs a couple more spokes or you side load less. I know which is easier to achieve.

MiddMan
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by MiddMan

I'm still dumbfounded at the lack of any substantive reviews of Corimas in general, and especially a complete dearth of info on the MCC. Cyclespeed did a great review a few years back, and so far he's the only one. I've tried searching en francais aussi, but I think my location defaults to mostly English websites, none of which have thorough reviews.
kgt wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:40 pm
In terms of stiffness two of the best options are LW Meilenstein C 24 E or Corima MCC WS+ 47. LWs are lighter.

by Weenie


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Multebear wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:24 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:23 am

suddenly i got this urge of a stiffer wheelset.
However, i guess there's really no way to get any data of this?
Any reason you want stiffer wheels? Do you have brakerub? Or other problems?
No, i have zero issues actually. I am curious.

What is a bit of a paradox is that i find a higher weight rim a bit disturbing.
Rims over 450 g i consider heavy. Eastons Aero 55 tubular is much lighter than the clincher version.
I think it's about 340 grams more for the wheelset.

Corimas look cool, but those rims are 470 grams (47mm deep/ 26mm wide externally).
I also was told by "someone", Corima had the worst brake quality of all wheels he had tested.

I looked at Schmolkes wheels, but it seems they're not so stiff according to owners at WW.
Not sure of Tune Schwarzbrenner 45C.

Lightweight is still too narrow at 24mm externally.

Mavic CU UST is still not available.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

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