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Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:28 pm
by guyc
How are they getting away with it. I’d have sent those straight back.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:29 pm
by spartan
with tire manufacturers all in agreement on the new ERTO tubeless standard i would not buy a new wheel that does not comply. why do consumers still buy enve's ? overpriced and mediocre quality control.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:29 pm
by Weenie

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:50 pm
by TobinHatesYou
spartan wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:29 pm
with tire manufacturers all in agreement on the new ERTO tubeless standard i would not buy a new wheel that does not comply. why do consumers still buy enve's ? overpriced and mediocre quality control.

Lifetime free damage replacement is a pretty big bonus. Also the ETRTO standard is two pronged. There's a tire standard and a rim standard. The tire standard is about to be ratified, but the rim standard is still potentially years away from being finalized.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:33 am
by Calnago
TobinHatesYou wrote: Lifetime free damage replacement is a pretty big bonus.
Lotta good that’ll do ya when you’re lying in the hospital brain dead because your front tire ripped open on one of your ultimate racer boy descents.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:54 am
by TobinHatesYou
Calnago wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:33 am
TobinHatesYou wrote: Lifetime free damage replacement is a pretty big bonus.
Lotta good that’ll do ya when you’re lying in the hospital brain dead because your front tire ripped open on one of your ultimate racer boy descents.

Several tire manufacturers have warned against using their open tubulars with any carbon clinchers in the past, so I don’t get why we’re singling out ENVE all of a sudden just because they also made the same recommendation. It’s mutual CYA posturing.

Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:07 am
by Calnago
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:33 am
TobinHatesYou wrote: Lifetime free damage replacement is a pretty big bonus.
Lotta good that’ll do ya when you’re lying in the hospital brain dead because your front tire ripped open on one of your ultimate racer boy descents.

Several tire manufacturers have warned against using their open tubulars with any carbon clinchers in the past, so I don’t get why we’re singling out ENVE all of a sudden just because they also made the same recommendation. It’s mutual CYA posturing.
Because ENVE seems to be particularly prone to having sharp edges on their bead, be it inherent in their manufacturing process or from poor quality control or both. Because ENVE has specifically acknowledged a potential problem with their rims. Because ENVE has warned against using not just one brand of tire, but has warned against using most any, and I hate this word because it’s strictly a marketing term, tires classified as “Open Tubular”. Basically any really nice riding clincher tire defined by supple sidewalls. That’s why. There are many brands of carbon clinchers that need no such caveat... run your fingers along the bead of a Campy Carbon clincher rim for example.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:12 am
by TobinHatesYou
And we could evoke the same tone at Veloflex for warning against using their tires with any carbon clinchers. ENVE’s list is pretty specific and limited to tires with exposed cotton casings.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:15 am
by icantaffordcycling
What part of enve's manufacturing process leads on an imperfect/sharp edge?

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:19 am
by TobinHatesYou
icantaffordcycling wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:15 am
What part of enve's manufacturing process leads on an imperfect/sharp edge?

They’ve made no admission that their bead hooks are sharp. That’s something people are inferring in the absence of detail. ENVE’s claim is that it doesn’t matter what geometry the bead hook has or what material it’s made of...their claim is cotton clinchers are more likely fail at the bead on any rim.

Official response:
“It is important to note that through this study, we reached out to many dealers as well as other wheel manufacturers to see if their consumers are having the same results as ours. The response was an unequivocal confirmation that these tires were fatiguing prematurely and in some cases resulting in crashes and injury to the rider when the tire sidewall failed or the tire came off the rim without warning.

There are two specific failure modes that have been documented and are not limited to ENVE rims, rather these failures have been consistent in our test lab on a variety of other manufacture’s rims, both alloy and carbon.”

It’s entirely possible the sharp edges we perceive on our rims are a red herring and of little consequence to the observed failure modes.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:44 am
by icantaffordcycling
It sounds like enve bead hooks being sharp and enve not recommending cotton clinchers are supposed to be completely unrelated? Enve is pulling some Apple "You are holding your phone" wrong level logic in my opinion. Have there been open cotton clincher failures on other carbon rims?

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:53 am
by spdntrxi
icantaffordcycling wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:44 am
It sounds like enve bead hooks being sharp and enve not recommending cotton clinchers are supposed to be completely unrelated? Enve is pulling some Apple "You are holding your phone" wrong level logic in my opinion. Have there been open cotton clincher failures on other carbon rims?
yes... and before you ask do your own legwork :beerchug:

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:58 am
by TobinHatesYou
icantaffordcycling wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:44 am
It sounds like enve bead hooks being sharp and enve not recommending cotton clinchers are supposed to be completely unrelated? Enve is pulling some Apple "You are holding your phone" wrong level logic in my opinion. Have there been open cotton clincher failures on other carbon rims?

I had a bead failure on IRC Formula Pro Light tubeless tires on my shitty Alto rims. The Altos are hookless and the edges are smooth. Given the similar failure a friend had with his Formula Pro XGuard tire and a subsequent failure mentioned by a WW poster, I’m confident the tire is to blame in that case. The tires are tubeless and aren’t cotton-casing based either.

The takeaway I guess is that tire construction matters.

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:03 am
by icantaffordcycling
Interesting. Thanks guys!

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:16 am
by spdntrxi
icantaffordcycling wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:03 am
Interesting. Thanks guys!
thanks for not asking for a link to everything... it's actually refreshing for a change. I have no reason to make shit up. :thumbup:

for future reference you just need to type veloflex and bora ... oh the beloved bora... no not them.. :noidea:

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:16 am
by Weenie

Re: Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:46 am
by icantaffordcycling
That's pretty much exactly what I did. I don't generally ask for information but after reading all 7 pages of this thread, there was no answer. Still should have googled first