Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8427
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Talk of the term “Open Tubular” aside, the issue really being discussed in this thread is whether the edge of the carbon clincher rim bead is ragged or sharp enough to cut through a tire. Most of the nicest riding tires these days have a relatively thin sidewall, and when butted up against a sharp edge, well... there is that potential for it to be cut. ENVE would not have put out such a public warning if this was never happening. I think it’s rather cheeky however, that they seem to have managed to get some people thinking it’s the tire manufacturers’ problem as opposed to the rim manufacturers’. Sure, I suppose tire manufacturers could beef up their tires with steel belts etc to withstand the sharp carbon edges on some, not all, rims. But who would want to ride those. Not me. Not anyone I suspect. If ENVE has recognized this issue in their rims then they need to take steps to adjust their manufacturing process so that their clincher carbon rims have a smooth, not sharp, bead. They’ve clearly acknowledged it. Now they need to fix it.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

ichobi
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

I agreed. I just thought the whole thing was just to cover their arse. Not wanting to deal with warranty and liability and such. Well still nice of them to give a warning so at least you know their rims have sharp beads but to paint it in such ways that these cotton tires aren’t safe in general is pushing it.

by Weenie


dim
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

guyc wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:12 pm
As you know I'm running Turbo Cottons and have thoroughly checked them after 3000 miles on Boras now and can't see anything abnormal. The 28mm's are a slightly beefier version though so maybe that helps.
you get 3000 miles (4828 km) on Specialized Turbo Cottons?
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

guyc
Posts: 983
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:40 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Contact:

by guyc

Not one pair....I see around 2000 miles from a set.

spdntrxi
Posts: 3013
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

dim wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 pm
guyc wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:12 pm
As you know I'm running Turbo Cottons and have thoroughly checked them after 3000 miles on Boras now and can't see anything abnormal. The 28mm's are a slightly beefier version though so maybe that helps.
you get 3000 miles (4828 km) on Specialized Turbo Cottons?
yes.. the rear getting squared off, but better then GP4K in that respect

dim
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

spdntrxi wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:22 pm
dim wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 pm
guyc wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:12 pm
As you know I'm running Turbo Cottons and have thoroughly checked them after 3000 miles on Boras now and can't see anything abnormal. The 28mm's are a slightly beefier version though so maybe that helps.
you get 3000 miles (4828 km) on Specialized Turbo Cottons?
yes.. the rear getting squared off, but better then GP4K in that respect
I've had 3 sets of Specialized Turbo Cottons (25's mounted to HED Belgium Plus Rims) .... I've always replaced them at approx 2000km as I found they start puncturing frequently at approx 2000km (I rotate them at approx 1000km)

Lovely tyres though and I will buy them again
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

guyc
Posts: 983
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:40 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Contact:

by guyc

Remember I’m running the 28mm versions which have a tougher construction than the 24/26’s. They’re such lovely tyres that I’m happy to trade off longevity for the ride quality.

tanhalt
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:36 pm

by tanhalt

guyc wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:18 pm
Remember I’m running the 28mm versions which have a tougher construction than the 24/26’s. They’re such lovely tyres that I’m happy to trade off longevity for the ride quality.
Yup...I've got >3k miles on a set of the 28C "Hell of the North" version of the Turbo Cottons. The casing material is the same as the smaller sized versions, it's just that the tread is significantly wider (wraps around the sidewalls of the casings more) and is also possibly a bit thicker.

jj911c2
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:46 am

by jj911c2

Are the Turbo Cottons approved? I see Specialized listed on the recommended list, but no specific models. These tires ride great, but definitely have thin sidewalls.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Nefarious86
Moderator
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am
Contact:

by Nefarious86

According to @angryasian they havent been tested/approved yet.
Using Tapatalk

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8427
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

For the same reasoning that any of the listed tires are mentioned, because of their super thin and supple sidewalls combined with the word “cotton” in the name, I would suspect that the Turbo Cottons would be just as susceptible to cuts, maybe more, than any of the tires on the list. Want to know if your rims could be a problem, regardless of brand?... just feel the edge of the bead that hooks the tire to see just how sharp it is or if there are any random splinters of carbon sticking out. If you’re comfortable running your fingers quickly around the edge without getting cut, then that’s a good sign. Again, it’s not the tires that are “failing”, it’s the sharp bead edge cutting through a thin sidewall, which most high quality road tire possess. I’ve seen Veloflex Clinchers get cut up on Vision rims. It’s the same thing.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

osw000
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:23 am
Location: Girona

by osw000

Calnago wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:24 pm
If tubulars were associated with all things bad in terms of ride quality, do you think that Vittoria would still be calling their best clinchers "Open Tubulars"? Uh, I think not.
Good point
Lightweight Urgestalt 2018 54 - SRAM eTap - Zipp 303 Firecrest tubular. 6,64kgs.

User avatar
kgt
Posts: 7775
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

If Vittoria's best clichers were vulcanized - like Continental's or Michelin's best clinchers are - do you think that Vittoria would still be calling theim "Open Tubulars"? Uh, I think not.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8427
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Ha... when a plane flies over your head, do you hear it? Ever? Sometimes I wonder.

Two tire engineers sitting at a bar, one from Vittoria, one from Continental...
Continental Engineer: Why do you call your clinchers Open Tubulars?
Vittoria Engineer: Because they're sort of the same, we use the same layers of stuff, and glue the layers together the same way as our tubulars... blah blah blah....
Continental guy: But they're clinchers, not tubulars.
Vittoria guy: Yeah, but the consumer feels like they're getting something a bit more special if we throw the word "tubular" in there somwhere.
Continental guy: That's brilliant, I'm going to suggest we do that too.
Vittoria guy: But you can't.
Continental guy: Why not?
Vittoria guy: Because we thought of it first and then I'd call you a copycat.
Continental guy: Well, we wont anyway, cuz it's just dumb and confuses people. If it uses a bead to clinch against a rim, it's a clincher no matter how it is made. And if it is an enclosed tube, glued to a rim without the need for any clincher beads, then it is a tubular, even if it's no more supple than a garden hose. Why confuse people?
Vittoria guy: Yeah you're right, don't blame me, I'm only an engineer... I'm just telling ya what Stavros in Marketing told me. He grows nice peach trees somwhere up north by Switzerland somewhere.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

1415chris
Posts: 1278
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:59 am
Location: Surrey UK

by 1415chris

Calnago, with all due respect as a person not having a dog in the fight, you are crossing the line of a good taste here. It is a bit confusing, reading a number of your very valuable posts on this forum, that you decided to immerse yourself into discussion with a bit foolish arguments.
We all know, I hope, what the "open tubular" phrase means, when we are talking about tyres.

by Weenie


Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post