Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I thought this latest round of TurboCottons (with "Gripton",) from specialized have only been out for maybe a year or so? They are certainly a nice tire from what I've experienced so far. Can't speak to their durability yet, but I'm not expecting Gatorskin like wear, nor do I want it.
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by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

kgt wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:42 pm
Calnago wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:24 pm
There’s a whole bunch of tires that fit into ENVE’s catchall of “Open Tubular”. That term is nothing but a marketing term to describe a clincher in a way that the consumer might think it’s just like a tubular, well... almost... except it’s not. The materials and layers may be similar or the same, but it’s still a clincher.
So it is not just a marketing thing. Of course open tubulars are clinchers (that's why the "open" before the "tubulars") but in terms of their construction they are made like tubulars. That means that they are not vulcanized, like most clinchers ,but they use hand-glued treads, high tpi treads, they are almost as supple as a tubular etc. IME an open tubular (one from Vittoria, or Veloflex, or Challenge, or Vredestein) feels more like a tubular than a typical clincher (like a Michelin, a Schwalbe or a Continental).
It's completely a marketing term. The construction is irrelevant. Whether it's vuclanized or not does not matter, whether it's hand made or not does not matter. There are poor tubulars just like there are poor clinchers. It is the "connotation" that comes with the word "tubular" that matters, and perception is everything in the world of marketing. The connotation is that tubulars have superior ride characteristics. Most probably do, but a really nice clincher might be nicer than a really poor tubular. In general, however, the perception is (and it is largely true) that Tubulars are the ultimate in bicycle tires, and of course, pros use them almost exclusively, so they must be good, right. And that is why some companies like to use the term "Open Tubular" to describe and market their best clinchers. If tubulars were associated with all things bad in terms of ride quality, do you think that Vittoria would still be calling their best clinchers "Open Tubulars"? Uh, I think not.
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

Calnago wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:22 pm
I thought this latest round of TurboCottons (with "Gripton",) from specialized have only been out for maybe a year or so? They are certainly a nice tire from what I've experienced so far. Can't speak to their durability yet, but I'm not expecting Gatorskin like wear, nor do I want it.
I didn't pay attention to "gripton" or not.. but I've used TC in 2016

AJS914
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by AJS914

It seems like Enve has a history of pushing the envelope a little too far. This reminds me of their hookless rims that come with fine print saying to not exceed 50-60-something psi. Unless you print that in big letters on the side of the rim, you can be sure that some rider will mount up his usual tire and inflate it to 120psi.

Maybe their engineers are hard headed? I mean Mavic and Campy seem to make carbon rims that don't seem to have this problem. Specialized doesn't say to not use a Turbo Cotton on a carbon Roval rim. Enve rims with a hook also seem to have a very pointy hook rather than the gentle radius hook as in the Mavic rim profile posted above.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I’ve seen a Conti GP4K fail in the same manner on an aluminum Roval rim. This happened on a group ride I was on. I told the rider his rim is faulty. I ran my finger on his rim and it’s sharp. He said no but he also admitted that this is the second tire to fail in a row. He believed it’s the tire and was swearing at Conti for producing crap tires. I have not seen the same rider since the incident so I don’t know if he got rid of the wheels or not.

Yeah I believe it’s the rim manufacturer at fault here. Enve needs to make their rims less sharp. I have never heard of such problem on other wheels such as the Boras. Some Enve owners must have complained to Enve about the rims and Enve now pushes the blame to the tires. What BS.


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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Enve have published there bead hook shape it's not round yet folk here kept buying them. There is your problem in a nutshell.

I have pointed this out before about there bead hook shape. It's nothing new. Yet until a safety warning is issued the obvious gets ignored because it's enve and must be therefore must be good.

It about time enve admitted there a problem shame they have blamed the tyres. Calnago is wrong saying this is s carbon rim issues they are alloy rims with bead hook that are sharp from being too small. They are also causing some issues with some tyres. But tubeless tyres as far as I know do it's currently under the radar.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

bm0p700f wrote:...Calnago is wrong saying this is s carbon rim issues they are alloy rims with bead hook that are sharp from being too small. They are also causing some issues with some tyres. But tubeless tyres as far as I know do it's currently under the radar.
Fair enough, I didn’t mean to imply (although I can see how you might think I was) that all carbon clinchers are bad, or that all aluminum clinchers are good. It all depends on how sharp the edges are, regardless of material, but generally speaking carbon rimmed clincher beads are much more prone to having a rough sharp edge than alloy is, hence the warnings that have been present for some time from the likes of Veloflex and Continental regarding clincher tire use on carbon rims. And I’ll add in all my year’s cycling I’ve never seen an alloy rim with a bead that cut a clincher, not to say there hasn’t been. But if it did, I’d make quick work of it with some emory cloth. Not as easy to do with carbon fibers that have been cut through.
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kgt
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by kgt

Calnago wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:30 pm
And that is why some companies like to use the term "Open Tubular" to describe and market their best clinchers. If tubulars were associated with all things bad in terms of ride quality, do you think that Vittoria would still be calling their best clinchers "Open Tubulars"? Uh, I think not.
Ehmm... no.
The companies that use the term "open tubular" actually construct their best clinchers similarly to their tubulars (non vulcanized, high tpi etc.). Have you ever seen a top clincher tire by Continental or Michelin or Pirelli marketed as "an open tubular? No, you haven't. Why? Because their construction has nothing to do with a tubular.
So marketing is there, of course, but it is not just marketing. There is a specific reason some clinchers are called that way and this is related to their construction.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

The reason is marketing and only marketing. It’s a brilliant way of marketing a clincher, for sure, and hats off to Vittoria for coming up with it. And they use similar construction as their tubulars as well. But they use the term because of its connotation first and foremost. At the end of the day they are still a high quality clincher, but that just doesn’t sound as good now, does it.
Or, maybe you’d like to go buy some “Closed Clinchers” instead. Cuz by the flip of the same coin, that’s what their tubulars are.
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LouisN
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by LouisN

:roll:







Louis :)

rollinslow
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by rollinslow

I would really like to see testing by other manufacturers or some independent organization so I can make a decision about replacing tires on my other carbon clinchers. Seems like the Continental GP5000 is a reasonable alternative and lose some weight in the process :)

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TonyM
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by TonyM

I have used my Boras and DT Swiss with Vittoria CX, Vittoria open pavé and Veloflex Corsa many km without problem so far. I regularly check my tires also in case of some cuts etc...

Maybe the problem is increased when:
- the weight bike+rider is higher
- the ride is on rough pavement
- the pressure is lower (the tire deforms more?)
- the ride is done with many hard brakings
- the ride is done with corners done at high speed

danridesbikes
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by danridesbikes

had a challenge strada bianca blow off a OG enve road disc rim a few years ago, whilst it was sat static in the workshop having just being built,

thought this had been a known issue for years,

ichobi
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by ichobi

Calnago wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:31 pm
The reason is marketing and only marketing. It’s a brilliant way of marketing a clincher, for sure, and hats off to Vittoria for coming up with it. And they use similar construction as their tubulars as well. But they use the term because of its connotation first and foremost. At the end of the day they are still a high quality clincher, but that just doesn’t sound as good now, does it.
Or, maybe you’d like to go buy some “Closed Clinchers” instead. Cuz by the flip of the same coin, that’s what their tubulars are.
Only works if you perceive tubular to be a superior product no? I don't because while tubular may ride nice, I don't like dealing with them. Here I judge them on usability rather than ride quality. I don't think most cyclists ride tubular or understand the benefit well enough for the term tubular to exude superiority over all clinchers. So for me the term open tubular doens't get me thinking well these are nice clinchers at all. If anything I find it confusing at first ( and still do).

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

^Fair point, but that superior “ride quality” is what most people associate with a tubular and that’s the connection they want to make. And a clincher, no matter how it is constructed, will never completely attain that simply due to its sidewalls having to be supported by two rigid walls of the rim, versus being cradled in a rim bed of similar radius to the tire, allowing it to move and conform much more naturally to the contours of the road, and particularly when leaned over in a turn.
But you’re absolutely right in that the term “Open Tubular” is confusing to many, because at the end of the day, even if every single layer and the way they are bonded together are identical to its tubular brother, it’s still a clincher.
Last edited by Calnago on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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