Open tubular failures on ENVE wheels:

[Calnago]

Well, it would seem that at least one person thinks the term “Open Tubular” is something other than marketing. It’s not. Sure, the tires are are constructed of similar layers and materials and that could be good or bad, depending on the tubular’s quality. Point is, it’s the connotation of the tire being high quality that the “tubular” moniker brings, so why not give that connotation to a clincher with the “Open Tubular” name. I’d like to think, like you said, that most people realize that. But I guess if that were completely true, then there would be no value in the term at all, since it would merely confuse. But as a marketing term, there is undoubtedly some value. Didn’t Veloflex used to call their clinchers, well, “clinchers”? Guess what they call them now? Copy cats.
But yes, I can’t be any clearer than I’ve been. If people want to believe that the term exists for some other reason than marketing, then so be it.

[shimmeD]

So, how are Continental making their tubulars? Same as their clinchers (ie vulcanising) and then stitched etc to make into tubulars?

[Calnago]

Don’t know, but it’s irrelevant to the “Open Tubular” discussion. Or are you just curious how they make them?

[shimmeD]

Both. If Conti make the carcasses of their tubs the same way as their clinchers, they could very well call their clinchers open tubulars as well.

[Bigger Gear]

Open tubular nomenclature aside, there has been some good discussion in here. Thanks everyone for contributing.

I've almost always used Vittoria Corsa CX or Corsa G tires with my carbon clinchers, going all the way back to my orginal EDGE 45s circa 2009. I've just inspected the set of 3.4s I have currently, and I feel no sharp edges on the bead hooks. I should have a set of 5.6s shortly and I'll certainly be inspecting them closely. I'm probably not about to make any drastic changes right now, as I've got a decent stock of Corsa G to get through first. Call me foolish, but this really seems like a CYA supremo from ENVE. I'd like to know how many tires ENVE tested and what their controls are/were? Pressures, weight, installation method, all could have a factor. Anyway, I surely post back to this thread if I end up having a problem!

[Calnago]

Both. If Conti make the carcasses of their tubs the same way as their clinchers, they could very well call their clinchers open tubulars as well.

You mean like the Grand Prix 4000 clincher and the Grand Prix 4000 Tubular? Sure. But they don’t even have to be the same construction. It’s simply marketing spin to try and equate their clinchers with the characteristics of their tubulars. And the carcasses may very well be the same. But they don’t have to be. It’s semantics at this point, we all know how a clincher works, we all know how tubulars work. And we know what defines each one. And it’s not the construction.

And @BiggerGear... yes, apologies for mansplaining the Tubular/clincher differences. But you’re right, the whole ENVE thing is a CYA exercise.

[kgt]

http://www.challengetech.it/info/technology/en
"Open Tubulars mount like a standard clincher, but are made using the same artisan Handmade process as our Tubulars and maintain most of the suppleness and ride quality gained from a Handmade Tubular."

https://www.veloflex.it/en/open-tubulars
"Our open tubulars are manufactured with the same artisan processing we use for our tubulars and this is the reason why we generally don’t call them clincher tires."

https://www.vittoria.com/us/road-tire
"Clincher is the most common type of tire and it requires the use of tubes. It comes with a woven fabric casing, with either metal or folding fabric beads, and it is vulcanized during the production process."

"Open tubular is a type of clincher tire that uses the unique construction method of high-end tubulars. Vittoria open tubulars have exactly the same production process and properties as the tubular, except for the sown-in inner tube."

[Calnago]

^Exactly... thank you.

[kgt]

You mean that you now see my point? Good.

[AJS914]

Who cares? You guys have derailed this topic with pissing match over semantics.

[kgt]

Sorry, that' s my last post in this thread.

[Calnago]

True enough. I’ll just leave @Kgt with this.... his last post simply proves that that there are indeed people that can’t see beyond the marketing spiel.

[guyc]

Challenge have pushed back on ENVE:

Challenge has noted failures of its clincher tires, communicated by consumers and athletes, caused by the sharp edges on the ENVE SES hooks. This international design standard violation has been communicated back to the affected consumers, shops, endorsed teams, ENVE and their parent company, as Challenge has been made aware of problems. ENVE, however, continues to produce and promote usage of the said SES models, as part of their line.
Challenge has consequently been forced to list the specific ENVE SES rims as not compatible with any Challenge clincher tire models, on the website. Challenge asks that consumers do not mount ENVE SES wheels with any model of Challenge clincher tire whatsoever.
Failure to follow this warning could cause the ENVE SES wheel to cut Challenge’s quality casings resulting in explosive air loss from the tire and/or inner tube, potentially causing a crash and injury to the rider.

This bulletin also aims at providing the technical clarification, that only a precisely defined 622.0mm+-0.5mm bead seat diameter, specifically defined wall height and center channel, as described in the new above standards, will safely and easily allow proper tire and rim fit and function. Challenge has regularly been attending standards meetings and being involved for the past three years in confronting the market’s accelerated changes, such as the implementation of progressively wider rims, carbon fiber clinchers rims and tubeless and tubeless ready tire technologies. Challenge has invested time, knowledge and energy together with other elite bicycle industry companies to address and update tire & wheel fit issues with the ETRTO and ISO.

Challenge handmade tires have been produced for close to 20 years using the same handmade processes that have been proven over the past 50 years at the highest levels of racing without significant failures - if the rims and wheels comply with internationally accepted design standards. And this applies for both aluminum and carbon fiber rims.

Regarding carbon fiber rims, there had also been other periodic problems in the past with some carbon rims that had cut our (and other tire manufacturers’) tire casings just above the beads. These tire cuts were however normally caused by less than optimal QC at the factory, resulting in quality issues of improper finishing at the tire hook during production. Normally roughness at the hook was due to failure to completely remove resin flashings created while molding the rim. Proper finishing leaves the required 0.7mm min. radiused rim hook smooth, without roughness, thus eliminating a potential tire failure.

In the above cases, Challenge has routinely and successfully worked with the wheel suppliers (including ENVE) to fix the problems or replace these wheels to the consumer. However, specifically with ENVE’s SES model wheels, it is the first time that Challenge has known of a rim hook design that does not meet the above recognized design criteria, reason for which Challenge feels compelled to follow up with the release of this informative bulletin to protect its customers

[Calnago]

Glad to see Challenge pushing back, as they should. It’s a rim manufacturing problem, not a tire issue.
Also glad to see that in serious communications, there is no mention of the term “Open Tubular” but rather they refer to the said tires at issue as “Clinchers”, and lump their best hand made clinchers, using the same process they’ve used for 20 years, into that category.

[TonyM]

Great push back from Challenge indeed!

That would be now great if Vittoria (or Veloflex) would make some statement....