Schmolke TLO 45 vs Bora One 50?

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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maxice
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:05 pm

by maxice

Looking for a wheelset (Clincher) for a Colnago C64 disc build. Its spec'd with Campag 11 EPS disc so just the wheelset to confirm.

They are both about the same price. The Schmolke is c250g lighter with CarbonTI hubs and are slightly wider by 0.6mm, not sure if they are more aero or not?

For a 67kg rider, mainly undulating roads in and around Kent/Essex/Surrey at c30-50kph on the flats (and way way slower on the climbs) what wheel would you recommend?

The Boras would make it all match but its a heavier wheel and I'm not 100% keen on the look of the G3 lacing on both wheels

....would I even notice the extra weight?

RocketRacing
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

Both appear optomized for 23cc (did not check if v or u shaped). I always choose tires first then wheels to match tour needs.

by Weenie


morrisond
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

The Bora's will roll better - Cone and Cup bearings are amazing.

Nice bike but with discs and the heavyish frame it isn't that light either - so saving 250grams is almost irrelevant.

You may only be 67kg but if you like responsive wheels the Bora's should be snappier in acceleration.

maxice
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:05 pm

by maxice

Want somethat that rolls well and maintains speed. If I wont really notice the weight diff then should stick with the Boras?

robeambro
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

maxice wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:11 pm
Looking for a wheelset (Clincher) for a Colnago C64 disc build. Its spec'd with Campag 11 EPS disc so just the wheelset to confirm.

They are both about the same price. The Schmolke is c250g lighter with CarbonTI hubs and are slightly wider by 0.6mm, not sure if they are more aero or not?

For a 67kg rider, mainly undulating roads in and around Kent/Essex/Surrey at c30-50kph on the flats (and way way slower on the climbs) what wheel would you recommend?

The Boras would make it all match but its a heavier wheel and I'm not 100% keen on the look of the G3 lacing on both wheels

....would I even notice the extra weight?
In general 250g aren’t that much, even more so considering that Boras are hardly heavy. Had they been 2kg, maybe they could have felt sluggish, but at their weight you’re very unlikely to feel like they slow you down during uphill surges. (I talk about feelings only, cause as a matter of fact 250g will have virtually no discernible actual effect on performance, especially on UK hills and rolling terrain).

Re: aero, nobody can’t really say for sure. provided rims are of a similar shape, much will depend on rim depth, and width vs tyre width etc.

morrisond
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

maxice wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:06 pm
Want somethat that rolls well and maintains speed. If I wont really notice the weight diff then should stick with the Boras?
Stick with the Bora's - they should hold up better over the long term as well.

If you were building a WW bike for occasional riding or a hillclimb specific bike then Schmolke - but for a regular rider Bora's are the way to go.

Mep
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

The Schmolke TLO 45 tubular have been revised heavier by 140g, confirmed by Schmolke themselves but they haven't updated their website. So I'd suggest you check with Schmolke if you're really getting a wheelset that's 250g lighter before buying.

That said, you'll definitely feel 250g difference in a wheelset especially if you test them back to back. They are quicker to accelerate, but won't feel too different once up to speed. Other factors like braking and crosswind handling are also important to consider. Hopefully you've realized by now that there is a strong bias for Boras on this forum.
Last edited by Mep on Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

physeter
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:35 pm

by physeter

You can't go wrong with the Bora's

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Noctiluxx
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Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

The Schmolke for your Instagram account, the Boras for your rides.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
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StanK
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:10 am
Location: Croatia

by StanK

RocketRacing wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:14 pm
Both appear optomized for 23cc (did not check if v or u shaped). I always choose tires first then wheels to match tour needs.
Never heard of it before. How to know/see which wheel is "optimized" for which tire width?

For me 250g is significant difference, even if isn't mostly uphill ride. In fact, only if is a dead flat road with completely steady tempo, I can't see how that much lighter wheel wouldn't make some positive difference.
I recently replaced my wheels with similar (and similar price) but +300g lighter wheels. I would not go back and I did not even ride uphill yet. Bike is more responsive, more "flying", I feel a less tired than before ... I can not wait for a longer rides :)

robeambro
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

StanK wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:06 pm
RocketRacing wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:14 pm
Both appear optomized for 23cc (did not check if v or u shaped). I always choose tires first then wheels to match tour needs.
Never heard of it before. How to know/see which wheel is "optimized" for which tire width?

For me 250g is significant difference, even if isn't mostly uphill ride. In fact, only if is a dead flat road with completely steady tempo, I can't see how that much lighter wheel wouldn't make some positive difference.
I recently replaced my wheels with similar (and similar price) but +300g lighter wheels. I would not go back and I did not even ride uphill yet. Bike is more responsive, more "flying", I feel a less tired than before ... I can not wait for a longer rides :)
At least from an aerodynamic perspective, both rim and tire should be very close in width with the rim actually being slightly wider than the tire (tire width being *actual* width, not the one you read on the box) to achieve maximum benefit. Probably this is what he meant.

That said, to whoever said 250g is significant, I respect it, but as I said above, it's mostly feeling, while the actual performance benefit would be quite negligible by all accounts to anybody not racing professionally.

RocketRacing
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

Yeah, i am talking about the zipp “rule of 105%” which as a rough guideline for the width of the rim vs width of mounted tire. In short, Too wide of a tire, and aero performance drops. The air detatches at yaw, and aero performance drops.

I forget the mumbers of the tlo and bora now, but both were around 26mm wide rims. Both about 17mm internal width. As such, a common labeled 23c tire would measure closer to 25mm... ideal for the rim width. A 25c tire might measure closer to 27mm... which is a bit too wide, and would start to have aerly detatchmwnt at yaw vs the narrower tire. 28c would kill most aero benefits of the wheel.

The articles on tire pressures and the topic is an excellent read on the blog section of the Silca website (josh was with zippand was a big part of their aero wheel program).
Last edited by RocketRacing on Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

RocketRacing
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

Here you go. The entire series is a must read:

https://blog.silca.cc/part-5-tire-press ... rodynamics

Have a look at the new systemsix. If you believe tour mag, it is the fastest uci legal aero bike out there. I will bet my left testicle it won (by a watt or two over the others) because it’s knot rims (32mm wide? With a huge internal width also) came with 23c tires. The rest in the test were 25c. They made a no compromise aero bike, and came up with 23c being the fastest option

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StanK
Posts: 197
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Location: Croatia

by StanK

robeambro wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:23 pm
... to whoever said 250g is significant, I respect it, but as I said above, it's mostly feeling, while the actual performance benefit would be quite negligible by all accounts to anybody not racing professionally.
As I see it, if something FEEL better, it is better. Maybe you are little bit faster, maybe you enjoying cycling more, maybe you are less tired, maybe you can riding more or further, list can go on ... but in the end something it is better. Maybe all of it, maybe some of it. That's my point.

Of course, there is possibility that someone is fooling himself THINKING that something is better. But, that is something for another topic.

Also, different people wants different stuff, but since this is WW forum and by definition that kind of bikes for now cannot enter any professional race, it is slightly odd to me that 250g weight drop (especially on wheels) is considered as almost nothing.
Sure, weight isn't everything, but if we suppose that both wheels (or something else, for that matter) are more or less same quality (and there too can be individual preferences as well) I simply can not see that so much lighter wheel would not be first choice. Especially for undulating roads. There is almost constant changes in tempo and for me the lighter wheel would be slightly better option to cope with that changes. Or, is Schmolke that bad in comparision with Bora One?

Of course, if turns out that something is very bad I would ditch it, but I think that is rare. I would go for lighter on this one. Especially for the same price.

RocketRacing
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

I think there is no wrong answers, just maybe “better” answers, depending on your needs.

If you average below 30km/hr, rough rule of thumb is that rolling resistance (rr) will give more performance gains than aero.

If all you care about is grades >4%, by all means go light as possible (and also optomize rr).

If you care about speeds over about 35km/hr... aero trumps weight, and as speed increases further... it even trumps rr.

25-35km/hr, and mild hills is kind of grey.

My solution was to find a rim/tire that optimized weight, aero, and rr, as i was greedy. I also think i did it on a moderate budget (cheap vs schmolke), and made a choice that hit the ball out of the park for visual impact also (because that matters!).

Of the two i would get the wider bora, put on 23c gt5000’s, and pocket the cash savings for my next upgrade.

by Weenie


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