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Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:07 am
by kgt
If you like Nemesis an alternative is Ambrosio Montreal. Almost same weight but much cheaper. I use those on my Colnago master x-light and they are fine.
https://www.all4cycling.com/shop/ambros ... anguage=en

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:07 am
by Weenie

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:56 am
by Nefarious86
32/32 Nemesis for sure.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:13 am
by thorerik
I ride my DA C60 Tubulars like everyday wheels. Great comfort and rolling. Can definitly recommend this

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Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:39 pm
by Geoff
For a nice, training set, you can also probably find a pair of Ambrosio Synthesis Durex rims, too. Those were the forerunners to the Nemesis rims. I raced on the Synthesis and Montreal Durex rims for decades. I still love those old rims.

If you go for the Nemesis, you can get away with fewer spokes, but there is really no reason to do that. If you build a set of 32s with 'factory' hubs (i.e., Campagnolo or Shimano with proper, adjustable bearings), you can also use them for 'pave' wheels or on your gravel bike. Lace them up with Sapim CX and CX-Rays and you will be in-business.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:40 am
by kgibbo1868
thorerik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:13 am
I ride my DA C60 Tubulars like everyday wheels. Great comfort and rolling. Can definitly recommend this

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk
I like this except my C50s have a bit too much graphics for my liking on my new bike. If I could remove the decals without harming the wheels I would definitely consider this but they are under the clear coat. The other consideration is I will race with these wheels and I prefer to race on 25s. This is why I am thinking of a separate set running 28s for non race riding.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:24 pm
by Zakalwe
All my wheels are tubular, and I don’t have any specific “training” wheels, but my set of Nemesis on Record hubs are a dream with 32 spokes (mostly Lasers with a thicker DS). They came out to about 1300g for the set, and Record hubs aren’t the very cheapest or the very lightest, so you can save either money or weight there

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:46 am
by bcmf
Ridiing tubulars all the time except for the last few weeks when I switched to Shamal Mille's.
Had to switch to the Shamals because my rear record hub on my winter tub wheels was giving trouble. Didnt want to go to deep sections in the winter winds and didnt want to go be carrying a spare tub plus tubes.
I got a front wheel built on what I believe to be BHS hub but I bought it from Taiwan.
Got it laced to a rim from a czech or slovenian manufacturer called Remerx https://www.remerx-rims.com/rtx-28-10
I just got the record hub removed from the rear ( anyone wanna buy a silver record hub for parts or servicing?) and got a Ambrosio Zenith hub ,in Silver and very similar looking to the Record, laced onto the similar rim from Remerx.
I was running VF Aranbergs but found them to be quite narrow for 25's. And with winter really arriving here (Ireland) I dug out a set of NOS Pave evo cg in 28mm and will see how they feel.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:42 pm
by kgibbo1868
Is the rim width as important with tubs running 28s? I know with clinchers it’s very important for aerodynamics, but with tubulars I’m not so sure, thoughts?

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:14 am
by Calnago
A tubular will always have an essentially round cross section. What’s important with a tubular is that the rim bed’s radius be somewhat close to the radius of the tubular.
Case in point: pre 2015 Boras were ~20.5mm wide external. The radius matches up best with tubulars in the 22-24mm range. When I put a 25mm Arrenberg on, sure it worked but wasn’t ideal as the tighter radius of the rim bed wanted to push or “squish” the tubular upwards, so that the center of the tire wasn’t getting as good a bond as the edges. And the tire would sit a couple mm higher on that rim than it would on the newer Boras which were designed around a 25mm tire. The same Arrenberg tire fits into the rim bed of the post 2015 Boras so much better, and gave me the couple of millimeters more clearance that I needed to run them comfortably on all my bikes. Conversely, if the rim bed radius is relatively large when compared to the tubular then when inflated the edges of the tubular will want to pull away from the rim and the strongest bond will be in the center. Ideally, you want the rim bed radius to match that of the tubular for a consistently strong and even bond across the entire width of the base tape. But if you have to compromise a bit, it’s more important to have a strong bond on the edges than the center. So, don’t get a tubular rim that’s too wide for the tire you want to use.

Forget aerodynamics with a quality tubular. What you’re getting is ride quality, handling and safety characteristics exceeding that of any clincher, tubed or tubeless. Because a tubular will always be round and fully closed, it will always take the same shape and same volume of air regardless of the rim it is on. This is in sharp contrast to a clincher which will vary a lot both in shape (particularly as it leaves the rim bead), and volume of air that it takes, since wider rims, to a point, effectively increase the bead to bead distance of the tire and air volume along with it.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:31 am
by kgibbo1868
Calnago wrote:A tubular will always have an essentially round cross section. What’s important with a tubular is that the rim bed’s radius be somewhat close to the radius of the tubular.
Case in point: pre 2015 Boras were ~20.5mm wide external. The radius matches up best with tubulars in the 22-24mm range. When I put a 25mm Arrenberg on, sure it worked but wasn’t ideal as the tighter radius of the rim bed wanted to push or “squish” the tubular upwards, so that the center of the tire wasn’t getting as good a bond as the edges. And the tire would sit a couple mm higher on that rim than it would on the newer Boras which were designed around a 25mm tire. The same Arrenberg tire fits into the rim bed of the post 2015 Boras so much better, and gave me the couple of millimeters more clearance that I needed to run them comfortably on all my bikes. Conversely, if the rim bed radius is relatively large when compared to the tubular then when inflated the edges of the tubular will want to pull away from the rim and the strongest bond will be in the center. Ideally, you want the rim bed radius to match that of the tubular for a consistently strong and even bond across the entire width of the base tape. But if you have to compromise a bit, it’s more important to have a strong bond on the edges than the center. So, don’t get a tubular rim that’s too wide for the tire you want to use.

Forget aerodynamics with a quality tubular. What you’re getting is ride quality, handling and safety characteristics exceeding that of any clincher, tubed or tubeless. Because a tubular will always be round and fully closed, it will always take the same shape and same volume of air regardless of the rim it is on. This is in sharp contrast to a clincher which will vary a lot both in shape (particularly as it leaves the rim bead), and volume of air that it takes, since wider rims, to a point, effectively increase the bead to bead distance of the tire and air volume along with it.
I completely agree on all the points regarding ride quality, handling and safety. I want to run 28s and am thinking the Hed C2s would be good as they are 23mm wide and have a great reputation. Do you think for 28s I should be looking for a rim that is wider than 23mm?


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Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:40 am
by Calnago
Not sure... you’re talking about running a 28mm tubular on a C2 rim? I used to have some Hed Belgium C2’s but they were clinchers. Nice rims. I would just ask HED directly, asking which rim bed profile would best match the 28mm tubular you want to use. They’ll likely work ok, but what I don’t like, if you’re using rim brakes, is when the tire is so much wider than the rim that even when you release “open” the calipers the tire still gets caught between the brake blocks. With 25mm tires on my Boras I don’t even have to open the calipers. Just undo the quick release and they’ll fall right out. If you’re using disc brakes that aspect of things is irrelevant. But I do want the inflated tire to be at least a little wider than the brake track width, to protect the rim from curb swipes etc.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:46 am
by bm0p700f
28mm tyres are fine on the hed rims. The C2 is 23mm wide and needs a 25mm tub or wider.

Nemesis rim really need a thicker spokes than the CX ray fit the rear. There no point in gram pinching on wheel like this.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:59 am
by Calnago
Love my Nemesis wheels. Agree on using decently strong spokes, I use DT Comps all round. Quite a tight rim bed radius however. I’ve decided to stick with 24mm tires on these rims. Actually, I use 25mm Conti Comps on the winter set as they are my absolute favorite foul weather tire. The rubber composition just seems to like water, debris doesn’t stick, and I just like the dotted tread pattern.
I’d totally recommend these rims on a nice 32 hole hub, but OP said he wanted to do a 28 spoke option both wheels. The Nemesis are only available in 32 hole. Plus, a 28mm tubular would be getting a bit big for this rim both in matching radius profiles and for getting the wheel out between the brake blocks easily.

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:24 am
by kgibbo1868
Calnago wrote:Not sure... you’re talking about running a 28mm tubular on a C2 rim? I used to have some Hed Belgium C2’s but they were clinchers. Nice rims. I would just ask HED directly, asking which rim bed profile would best match the 28mm tubular you want to use. They’ll likely work ok, but what I don’t like, if you’re using rim brakes, is when the tire is so much wider than the rim that even when you release “open” the calipers the tire still gets caught between the brake blocks. With 25mm tires on my Boras I don’t even have to open the calipers. Just undo the quick release and they’ll fall right out. If you’re using disc brakes that aspect of things is irrelevant. But I do want the inflated tire to be at least a little wider than the brake track width, to protect the rim from curb swipes etc.
This will be used with rim brakes. Thanks for the detailed response!


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Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:24 am
by Weenie

Re: Ultimate training tubular setup

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:53 pm
by bahn
I just got myself some Kinlin TB20 rims (ordered from bm0p700f) to build up reusing some 24h/28h Hope hubs and with some round spokes. Not sure if they will be close to the ultimate setup but a cheap build.

Guess I will use them when I don't want to take out my carbon/race wheels and risk cutting up the rubber too much . Maybe even use for service wheels.

I have a bunch repaired and part worn 25mm and 27mm Veloflex to stick on so seemed a sensible build.... and I just prefer riding tubs, always.