Alloy clincher (custom) wheels, 1150-1350g

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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vejnemojnen
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by vejnemojnen

by windcheater I meant more aero. Not my native tongue, therefore, I have a tendency to use inappropriate terms sometimes :welcome:

by Weenie


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StanK
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by StanK

Ah, ok then.
I was already think that I know way less than I think to know :D Btw. not my native language either.

Phill P
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by Phill P

Modern aero profiles now consider the side wind effect, so no where near as bad as 10 years ago.
But this is why the 35/45 set we sell is popular for ppl who climb alot - they save some grams, less side wind issues, but still get stiff and somewhat aero wheels. Then for those on flatter roads they go for the 45/55 set - not as concerned about the grams and side wind, but get a more aero set of wheels.
Al rimmed wheels are not aero. Better than they used to be because of getting wider for nice tranistion from rim to tire. The big brands cut the spoke counts very low to improve aero, but then they are not strong enough for bigger riders. 20/24 spoke is the standard for custom built wheels, but then we have built wheels with more spokes in the rear for sprinters etc. Not a lot go for our 18/21 hubs the 20/24 is far more popular.
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vejnemojnen
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by vejnemojnen

StanK wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:44 pm
Ah, ok then.
I was already think that I know way less than I think to know :D Btw. not my native language either.
: ) Croatian is still closer to English, both being Indo-European.

I'd suggest you to look for Hambini member's post and his blog on tour. Though that's in German, Google translate works pretty damn well for related languages.

Believe me, aerodynamic advantage has more benefit than a few grams.. And 40-45mm profile height is not that much to be an issue with sidewinds anyway (we are not talking about 88-80mm height.. ;) )

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StanK
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by StanK

vejnemojnen wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:30 am
... Believe me, aerodynamic advantage has more benefit than a few grams.. And 40-45mm profile height is not that much to be an issue with sidewinds anyway (we are not talking about 88-80mm height.. ;) )
I don't know about that. At least for me, or my weight, or my comfort zone, or whatever.
Yesterday I was go on the short ride, and wind was stronger than forcast told. I expected 7-8km/h, but it was +10km/h for sure.

And on parts of really open road I was pushed by that side wind more than I think I would be. I didn't like that at all because I was at one of the main roads in my area and is a lot of traffic there. And I have 22mm rim front wheel.

So, I cannot see that 35, 45mm deep wheels, no matter how advance they are these days, would behave better than 22mm in side winds.
I'm sure in no-wind condition and on the flat roads, I would like deep rims better. But overall ... I don't think so. Maybe If I hada chance to try them ... somehow. Maybe that would be love on first sight, I don't know. Of course, even then they would have to be sub 1500g.

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StanK
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by StanK

Phill P @

I still think that side wind would be extra issue for me, even with 35mm front wheel.

Btw. I looked at your page. First impression is - that decals on your wheels are way too similar with Zipps :)

Phill P
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by Phill P

StanK wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:07 am
So, I cannot see that 35, 45mm deep wheels, no matter how advance they are these days, would behave better than 22mm in side winds.
I'm sure in no-wind condition and on the flat roads, I would like deep rims better. But overall ... I don't think so. Maybe If I hada chance to try them ... somehow. Maybe that would be love on first sight, I don't know. Of course, even then they would have to be sub 1500g.
This is true. What I was referring to was how bad deep rims were last decade in a side wind. These days some rims are better than others, just like some are more aero for the same depth etc.
But wheels with really wide Al spokes are still bad in a side wind. Open pros with a lower number of round steel spokes are always going to have less side wind influence than something much deeper.
Technical Director at www.TUFFcycle.com

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kgt
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by kgt

According to hambini's test (banned unfortunately) only rim depth actually matters in crosswind stability. Different profiles, different widths etc. have practically no impact.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Hambinis test showed that depth matter to how much aero drag is present. deeper wheel have lower drag. What the test did show though below 12 degrees yaw there are differences in drag and that will affect the torque on the wheel/steering but above 12 degree the flow seperates and all wheel behave like a brick wall (profile has not real world impact). What hambini did show is the bigger the difference between tyre and rim width the higher the drag and that has some but not much impact on cross wind stability.

Also stanK its spada not strada. strada is a UK wheel wheel builder. Also customer views while nice to get are not always very informative as it depends of what they have used before.

An example I used to have a 28F/28r set of Kinlin XR220 rim 22mm deep, 19.5mm wide and 13.5mm internal with built up with sapim laser spokes. Weight was 1360g. A 27mm vittoria pave sat at 25mm wide as the rim were so narrow and at the time I really like them. They felt light because my reference was 32 spoke wheels with narrow rims. So if I had bought the strada stilleto's I would have loved them. see what I mean. However Since then I have built wheels with wider rims, that are stiffer. The tyres have a nicer shape and I can use wider tyres without the shape being like a balloon. these wheels just feel responsive even though they are heavier. My BORG50C carbon wheels which weight close to 1700g bare are wquicker, more comfortable just better than those old Kinlins. I sold them in the end because frankly they were not great.

The spada wheels are in a similar class but not cheap. You could spend alot less and have the Kinlin's built up with 20F/24R drillings , bitex hubs and sapim laser spokes. Given the thin alpina hyperlite (thinner and therefore less stiff than sapim CX-ray/laser spokes) these kinlin/bitex wheels would be a bit stiffer but other wise feel much like the spada wheels but for less outlay. I would not built them. I refuse jobs like that because they are to put it bluntly shit wheels. Flexable, sluggish (even if the feel responsive because they are light), commically narrow which is fine if you are using 23mm tyres and have smooth roads (you probably do in croatia) and spoke failure during the life of the wheel has a reasonable chance of happening (almost guaranteed for a resonably strong 77kg rider). I did one 20F/24R Kinlin XR220 set once for a child. It was the second most awful wheelset I have built because they were so flexible. every time I stressed the spokes the wheel went out. I eventually figued a 25kg girl will probably stress the wheels less than I am in the stand so I let them out. I was right she was fine on them but then her dad starting using them..... I told him they are only fit for a child....

I sometimes build (maybe once a year now but none this year) Kinlin XR220 wheelsets in 24F/28R but I do my best to put the customer off because I dont think they are very good. sometimes despite my efforts they still want them so I build them but I feel I have done my bit so they know what they are getting.

You can read wheels like a book stanK. The rim profile tells you how that wheel is going to behave and build up like (assuming they are round) once spoke count and spoke type are known. Wheels are not a mystery, they are an open book.

Also physics clearly shows aero trumps weight everytime even somewhere hilly like croatia. Of course I am assuming the more aero wheels are not 2kg.

And yes your mavis, while nothing wrong with them can be bettered. If the choice is between these two (it not they more choice than that) then stick to what you have got.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Phill P wrote:...
But wheels with really wide Al spokes are still bad in a side wind. Open pros with a lower number of round steel spokes are always going to have less side wind influence than something much deeper.
So true, wide spokes increasing that surface area to the wind are no small factor when it comes to handling in cross winds. Remember the short lived MadFiber wheels with their super wide flat carbon spokes. Those were fun.
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StanK
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by StanK

bm0p700f @

An interesting post and very logical to follow.
Yes, I obviously misspelled somewhere, it's Spada, not Strada.

But let's back to that Stilleto. All those texts on web saying wheel it's stiff ... it's a lie? They are all not telling the truth for some reason?

I hardly believe that, but also, I cannot say I don't believe what you say. I'm confused again :?
Nothing strange, really. Just I'm gonna need little more time to consider all the options to be sure what will be the best option for me, in given budget.

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StanK
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by StanK

Spada has slightly mess of a website, where you can find pictures that aren't match for a actuall colours or what decals would be on, stuff like that. And they are not very helpfull when you ask them about it. So, no thanks.

Looks is part of a "package" and I don't wanna buy wheels without knowing how would they exactly looks like prior to buy.
So, search continues :)

petert123
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by petert123

bm0p700f wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:10 pm
Light aero and stiff are also posibble but that would cost.

I have a set of 45mm deep carbon clichers that are wide and tubeless ready. Weight 1280g. I weight more than you too and I have no cenernsa bout them. The rims are 465g each. the hubs are extralite which weigh nothing but somehow are not unreliable or prone to noises. Cost if I was building them for a customer they would be over £1500. The Mavic OP/carbon build for comparision is under £900.
Interesting. In the market for a set of nicer wheels for my 'better' weather bike (UK spring to autumn), daily use. Looked at the Borg50c's, Hunt's 36/50's amounst others. Want to run them tubeless. I wouldn't be in this forum if I didn't care about weight, but also look to reliability - at 53kgs and 30 years on the road I find it hard to keep wheels straight, gave up on factory wheels some time ago.

clarinet5001
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by clarinet5001

petert123 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:16 pm

Interesting. In the market for a set of nicer wheels for my 'better' weather bike (UK spring to autumn), daily use. Looked at the Borg50c's, Hunt's 36/50's amounst others. Want to run them tubeless. I wouldn't be in this forum if I didn't care about weight, but also look to reliability - at 53kgs and 30 years on the road I find it hard to keep wheels straight, gave up on factory wheels some time ago.

Well there are some good custom options that are plenty durable too. Rim brake or disc?

Hunt wheels tested poorly in the Hambini test. The Hunt 50s were behind the Zipp 303 and Dura Ace c35, wihich means they're also behind the alloy AForce AL33 and Kinlin XR31t.

The best hubs for your goal might be Carbon-Ti. They're plenty light at around 220-230g for the rim brake pair and remarkably durable too. They're only available in 20/24h spoke count and straight pull, but they are very good and not ultra expensive either. Price-wise they're around the same as White Industries hubs.

For rims you could go Easton R90SL for an all around option with good durability, 455g per rim would build up to around 1400g with Sapim Race / DT Comp spokes and mid 1300s for Laser / CX Ray or Revo / Aerolite. DT RR411 is another good option, a little cheaper, shallower, and not quite as wide (18c internal for DT stuff vs. 19.5 for the Easton) but also a very high quality rim, and that would shave 40g off the pair. That's getting down to around 1300g and we're not even in 'true weight weenie' rim territory yet.

by Weenie


petert123
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by petert123

clarinet5001 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:36 am
Well there are some good custom options that are plenty durable too. Rim brake or disc?

Hunt wheels tested poorly in the Hambini test. The Hunt 50s were behind the Zipp 303 and Dura Ace c35, wihich means they're also behind the alloy AForce AL33 and Kinlin XR31t.

The best hubs for your goal might be Carbon-Ti. They're plenty light at around 220-230g for the rim brake pair and remarkably durable too. They're only available in 20/24h spoke count and straight pull, but they are very good and not ultra expensive either. Price-wise they're around the same as White Industries hubs.

For rims you could go Easton R90SL for an all around option with good durability, 455g per rim would build up to around 1400g with Sapim Race / DT Comp spokes and mid 1300s for Laser / CX Ray or Revo / Aerolite. DT RR411 is another good option, a little cheaper, shallower, and not quite as wide (18c internal for DT stuff vs. 19.5 for the Easton) but also a very high quality rim, and that would shave 40g off the pair. That's getting down to around 1300g and we're not even in 'true weight weenie' rim territory yet.
I've discarded Hunt in the meantime.

Thanks for feedback. Rim brake it is - around 1300g is okay for me, want them to be for daily use on rough (tarmac) roads. Nice custom options noted, thanks again.

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