Alloy clincher (custom) wheels, 1150-1350g

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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StanK
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by StanK

I'm looking for some wheels to replace my Mavic Ksyrium Elite S (1550g). What's wrong with them? To be honest - nothing. Or almost nothing.
True to be told, I don't have any experience with different sets of wheels, but I think these are fairly good for money - pretty stiff (I think), trouble free and silent for now and good looking (for me, at least). If they cca. 200-250g lighter I wouldn't consider swaping them at all.

My target price is … let's say $1000-1100, but I be happier with less than that if possible.
So far didn't find lot of stuff, but few weeks ago I stumbled on some Italian web page where I purchased new stem. And then I saw some custom wheels, for very good price. My eyes cought these two, as most atractive option.

1. http://bikeonline.it/en/road-wheelsets/ ... _hyperlite

Is this, especially with low spoke count (1150g), maybe "too light"? 400g weight saving sound simply great, but would the trade off in stiffness be too much? Is it inevitable?

2. http://bikeonline.it/en/road-wheelsets/ ... o_sram_11v

These is second option (for now) if first option would be "too light". Is this AmCl "proper" aero? Could it be compared with similar deep(ish) carbon wheels?

Since I don't know anything about wheel building and from parts involved (rims, hubs, spokes) can't see what could be good or not, I would really appreciate some thought regardings parts used on those two wheelsets.
Generally, I would like to drop at least 200g regarding wheels (more if it possible), but I don't want to end up with lighter, but generally not-that-good wheelset.

I need allround solution (but, lighter the better :mrgreen: ), as little more than half of my rides are undulating roads and little less are flat roads. My rides are 30km/h average, solo rides mainly. I'm 77kg. If bike is a factor, it's in the signature.

Of course, any other suggestion is more than welcome, yet I would only considered options from EU. Too much taxes and custom duty if outside EU.

by Weenie


wintershade
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by wintershade

I don't recognize the brands of the parts in the wheel builds you provided. While I'm not a wheel expert, I'd stay away, especially if you are a powerful rider. When it comes to wheels, you can either have lightweight, stiff, or cheap. Pick 2.

If you want 1350 gram alloy clinchers, the obvious choice in my opinion are the Campy Shamal Ultras (Or Shamal Mille if you care more about the stealth aesthietci than tubeless readiness). They are very nice handbuilt wheels with beautiful and bombproof carbon shell hubs that are incredibly stiff. You can get them for $900ish on most UK sites such as Chain Reaction Cycles. The Fulcrum equivalent (Racing Zeros) I believe would be the same if you don't ride Campy.

You also say you want an everyday wheelset. Some kind of superlight, low spoke custom build is unlikely to be sturdy enough for an every day, high mileage wheelset. So if you're conisdering adding a set of race only wheels, maybe you can make some more compromises.

If you want aero, that's a whole different beast. If you want to get into your weight range, you will need to go carbon for sure, and tubular if you want to go deep aero.

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StanK
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by StanK

wintershade wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:51 pm
...
You also say you want an everyday wheelset. Some kind of superlight, low spoke custom build is unlikely to be sturdy enough for an every day, high mileage wheelset...
Well, my Mavics are with 18/20 (aero) zicral spokes. Enough stiff for me. For my one and only wheelset, like I said, no complants at all. Just want something like that, but lighter.


Btw, I forgot to mentioned few things...

- I'm not interested in tubeless
- I'm not that interested in aero, but if can get lighter wheelset with aero benefit, of course I would take it. Hence question for wheelset nr. 2
- I don't do races, no serious trenings, no sprints (in short, no huge watts), just racing myself around for my own pleasure :D
- Shimano hubs only

Fulcrum Racing Zeros ...
Weight is almost like my Mavics so this is no go. :( And even no recomandation for 23mm tire. Not for me.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

I will give you basically the same advice as Wintershade.

At your weight and for your purpose, you will be dissappointed in the durability of anything alloy that is less then 1400 grams.

The best you can do at 1400 grams is likely the aforementioned Shamal Ultras. They do come with Shimano cassette bodies as an option. Nothing custom built will be as strong, stiff, or as durable at that weight. The are not at all aero of course, but if you are mostly riding solo it is irrelevant.

Don't be fooled by spoke counts. Yes your Mavics had very few spokes but those spokes are solid. The Shamal spokes even more so. That's where the wheel stiffness comes from. Putting a low number of standard light weight spokes like CX Ray or similar is a recipe for trouble under an 80 kg rider.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

DRC is an italian rim manufacturer. The 380g rim is just like the Kinlin XR220 (edit I wrote XR22T before thats a mistake). Same depth, same internal width but a tad narrower (0.5mm). So it will be very similar stiffness wise (not very stiff at all) . So 20F/24R is for a child. 24F/28R is for light grown ups.

You could have a set of the kinlins built up with extralites but I am going to be blunt you'd be wasting your money. Yes they light, yes they feel light but as a performance option don't. Put it this way if you phone me up asking for that option I would talk you out of it rather than take your money. If you going for that sort of rim use cheaper hub like Bitex or novatec and you will have a set under 1350g that is also not too expensive.

WhenStanK is comparing his mavics to the wheels the OP has posted about like is not being compared with like. Spoke count is just one factor that dermines wheel stiffness and most people confuse lack of brake rub with stiff wheels. Lack of brake rub just mean you have a flexible rim. A stiff rim often mean you get brake rub. So a wheel that does not rub is not a stiff one like my 32 spoke Mavic GEL280's on Novatec hubs with sapim race spokes. flexy wheels but they dont rub and thats because they are not stiff.

the flaw in the second set is the internal width og the rim is so narrow. a kinlin XR31T is 24mm wide, 19mm internal wifth and therefore it will be stiffer laterally than the Am classic rim. The kinlin is 485g so a bit heavier but a better ride.

You can tell what a rim is like by looking at it dimensions and profile. You can tell what a wheel is like if you have build enough of them without having to ride it again the rim profile says it all (so the the spokes used). Its like reading a book.

If there nothing wrong with your mavics then you could stick with those. You can have better wheels but not necessailarly much lighter.
You can have more aerodynamic, tubeless compatible and more comfortable. Here a free hint, a wider rim is generally stiffer and more comfortable. Wheels set weight tells you nothing about what a wheel feels like or how it performs.
Last edited by bm0p700f on Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Mr. Gib not true. I am a bit heavier than the OP and yet own and ride wheels and have built several that are under 1400g that are quite durable. It is possible.

The rim I would start with for light is the Mavic open pro ust 24H/28h and lace to Carbon Ti or Extralite hubs. With the extralite hubs weight would be 1280g and with carbon Ti hub it would be 50g heavier assuming Cx-rays. there is no gain in using thinner lighter spokes unless you want potenal reliability issues.

the wheels the OP is looking use the alina hyperlite spokes which is like the Sapim Super spokes and those have no place is day to day wheel. They have a place only in a ultra light weight front wheel for hill climbs. I am just being pratical here.

It does surprise me why people are willing to pay for these. This is why I disagree with Mr. Gibs statment. It not the weight but the components used

A deeper wider rim Like the adds weight but is stiffer and more aero dymamic. Stiffer wheels generally give longer spoke life too.

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StanK
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by StanK

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:44 pm
I will give you basically the same advice as Wintershade.

At your weight and for your purpose, you will be dissappointed in the durability of anything alloy that is less then 1400 grams. ...
I really appreciete your input. As I said, I'm almost completelly ignorant regarding wheels, so I'm ready to soak up some good advices before I spend (maybe, as now things stands) some serious (for me) cash.

Regarding Shamal ... this is only 100g of saving. If I can't drop 200g with some new wheels, then Ksyrium would stay.


Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:06 am
Mr. Gib not true. I am a bit heavier than the OP and yet own and ride wheels and have built several that are under 1400g that are quite durable. It is possible.

The rim I would start with for light is the Mavic open pro ust 24H/28h and lace to Carbon Ti or Extralite hubs. With the extralite hubs weight would be 1280g and with carbon Ti hub it would be 50g heavier assuming Cx-rays. there is no gain in using thinner lighter spokes unless you want potenal reliability issues.
bm0p700f, I have great respect for your wheel knowledge and always read your posts with interest. I have no doubt that the wheels you describe above are of course the smartest way to hit that weight, and while they may be suitable for the OP, I maintain that they are unlikely to have the service life of a set of Shamal Ultras or Fulcrum counterpart.

Would you send a 300 lb man to the Alps with Mavic open pro ust 24H/28h laced to Carbon Ti or Extralite hubs? I have been with such a monster on a previous bike trip who rode Shamals and they were just fine (it blew my mind that any wheels would survive under this man).

And if you are wondering how a 300 lb man can survive the Alps, he didn't just survive - he was amazing - both up and down.
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

If I were 77kg and could put out a fair bit of power, and insisted on staying with alloy rims then I'd keep the Mavic's @1550gr that you currently have.

If carbon is acceptable then you have some weight you can shed, or save some aero watts.

ericoschmitt
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by ericoschmitt

Kinlin XR31t and BHS UL190+UL66 hubs, Pillar 1420 spokes, can build light wheels with some aero benefit. That would be around 1400g I think.

For the front wheel you can probably get away with lighter rims, such as Stans Alpha 340 (while you can still find them), but since you would have something heavier on the rear why not get some aero benefit and ride 30mm front, where it will make more difference anyway?

BTW the BHS hubs are Bitex RAR9 RAF10 hubs, you can get them from Aliexpress as well as the spokes. But if you are in US it may be more convenient to buy from BHS.

Use DT swiss calculator to figure out spoke lengths.

Have you paid attention to tire and inner tube weight?? With alloy rims you can use Supersonic inner tubes or Vredestein Latex (lower RR). If decent roads, Attack/Force. That will be lighter than tubeless. And skewers?? Most wheels come with heavy skewers, and it's relatively cheap to get 29g Controltech key skewers, bonus a couple watts in aero. Or some KCNC ones which have levers at about 45g I think.

Stay away from Rox Ultralight tapes, on long downhill the glue melts and the tape shrinks, then you get the inner tube to burst through the rim hole. Happened to me going down a 20km hill after racing uphill. Kapton tape works, is cheap and light (two layers).

I also own Tufo Calibra Lite tires (came with 146g and 149g), didn't get a flat in the 200km I used them, but one of them has a wide cut in the thin rubber thread, and a few scratches in the carcass that make me worried about their longevity. Also I found one piece of glass that went through but didn't cut the inner tube after that downhill. The glass wasn't there when I got that flat from the Rox tape, but it was when I took the tire off to replace the tape. I haven't used Attacks or GP4000 on the climbing wheelset (bitex+Alpha340), but on the other wheelset I got, they feel smoother to ride than the Tufo's. I guess although tufos have thin rubber, the carcass has kevlar thread which makes it harder, while continentals have nylon carcass.

So overall, probably it isn't worth getting Tufos just to save 60g. Conti Attack will probably last longer, flat less, have much more grip, ride nicer, possibly saves RR too.

So supposing you ride some GP4000 with standard tubes (100g each) and some 120g skewer set, and common rim tapes (30g) you can cut over 400g off your bike, save a few watts in rolling resistance, and get some aero advantage from rims and skewers! :)

Marin
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by Marin

bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:58 pm
DRC is an italian rim manufacturer. The 380g rim is just like the Kinlin XR22T. Same depth, same internal width but a tad narrower (0.5mm).
No! It's listed as Internal width: 13.5mm which is comically narrow, and an 18mm external rim with 380g will need a high spoke count for an enthusiastic 77kg rider.

nachetetm
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by nachetetm

I don't see the point of changing the Mavic for the Fulcrum/Campy. The weight savings will be unapreciable and I don't think a person under 80 kgs benefits from the extra stiffness of the Shamal/Racing Zero. I think bm0p700f suggested the best option. The new Mavics seem to be the lightest reliable modern alu rim, and paired with good lightweight hubs like Carbon Ti and X-Rays probably will make an excellent wheelset while being very light.

Another option, lighter but probably less sturdy would be this:

https://www.spadabike.com/en-en/16/oxygeno/

My preference however would be the Mavic/Cabon Ti option. If Mavic ends releasing the Exalith version even better.

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StanK
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by StanK

bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:58 pm
... You can have more aerodynamic, tubeless compatible and more comfortable. Here a free hint, a wider rim is generally stiffer and more comfortable. Wheels set weight tells you nothing about what a wheel feels like or how it performs...

...A deeper wider rim Like the adds weight but is stiffer and more aero dymamic. Stiffer wheels generally give longer spoke life too...
Yes, I kinda learned that over short period of time reading bunch of good stuff here, but I was hoping that is possible to get some good 1350g alloy wheelset. Obviously, mostly not. Ok, there goes those 2 Italians custom wheelsets.
alcatraz wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:56 am
... If carbon is acceptable then you have some weight you can shed, or save some aero watts...
Regarding carbon wheels ... (ok, title says alloy, but of cours I looked in that direction too, if not not my first choice)

Yes, I found something as "reserve option". How about these?
https://www.wheelscience.com/collection ... emental-38
Good investment, yes-no?

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StanK
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by StanK

Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:58 am
If I were you I'd get https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/whe ... -dicut-21/
If I'm building bike from zero and don't have any wheels ... would be good option, for sure. In present circumstances weight saving wouldn't justify money difference in swapping wheels.

by Weenie


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