Ceramic wheel bearings worth the upgrade?
Moderator: robbosmans
I have the new 2018 Mavic Cosmic Carbon SL UST wheels. Will I notice any performance bump upgrading to the Kogel ceramic wheels bearings?
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Clear no,Noctiluxx wrote:I have the new 2018 Mavic Cosmic Carbon SL UST wheels. Will I notice any performance bump upgrading to the Kogel ceramic wheels bearings?
1) bearing resistance is small in absolute, except placebo effect you won’t feel anything.
2) bearing rolling resistance is the in very large majority grease and seals resistance. Not the material. Less resistance = less protection (or using oil as lubricant)
3) You could adjust the bearing preload to ensure they are perfectly adjusted. On Mavic wheels it’s extremely easy.
4) good bearings are expensive, mastering their geometry and tolerance is more important than the material. In other word good ceramic bearings will be very expensive, cheap ceramic bearing will be worse than an ok steel one.
I will try to find a link on the bearing resistance explanation, I recall a good one on that topoc
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Last edited by C36 on Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Seeing them spin fast in your hand will make you think they are saving you lots of watts.
Ceramic gets great publicity these days.
If your hubs have a preload mechanism I think affordable ceramic bearings are an option.
If you don't have a preload mechanism then stick with steel bearings with super low tolerances for happy reliable and efficient use.
Ceramic bearings that don't cost a fortune have more play in them. This play is a big no-no in hubs where you can't eliminate it.
Some steel bearings have poor tolerances too. I like skf for their low play. They make my wheels feel very solid, even when the hubs are poorly designed with too small bearings these bearings have made them usable.
In steel it's not about spending more money like with ceramic, it's mostly about finding the right one.
If your hubs use small diameter bearings then stay away from ceramic like the plague. Ceramic can't take the same load the way steel can before they shatter. A few bunny hops later and you'll be riding on ceramic dust and gravel. The black ceramic is harder but more brittle no3s4. The ZRO2 white kind is softer and can take impacts better, however the lifespan will be very short.
If your hubs have a preload mechanism I think affordable ceramic bearings are an option.
If you don't have a preload mechanism then stick with steel bearings with super low tolerances for happy reliable and efficient use.
Ceramic bearings that don't cost a fortune have more play in them. This play is a big no-no in hubs where you can't eliminate it.
Some steel bearings have poor tolerances too. I like skf for their low play. They make my wheels feel very solid, even when the hubs are poorly designed with too small bearings these bearings have made them usable.
In steel it's not about spending more money like with ceramic, it's mostly about finding the right one.
If your hubs use small diameter bearings then stay away from ceramic like the plague. Ceramic can't take the same load the way steel can before they shatter. A few bunny hops later and you'll be riding on ceramic dust and gravel. The black ceramic is harder but more brittle no3s4. The ZRO2 white kind is softer and can take impacts better, however the lifespan will be very short.
C36's post sums everything up.
The only ceramic that is broadly any good is Campag Cult, Which is a FAG product. The bearing races are much harder than normal ceramic bearings so they last a long time.
Ceramic bearings are not truly ceramic, they are usually hybrid so they have ceramic balls running on a steel race.
HTH
Hambini
The only ceramic that is broadly any good is Campag Cult, Which is a FAG product. The bearing races are much harder than normal ceramic bearings so they last a long time.
Ceramic bearings are not truly ceramic, they are usually hybrid so they have ceramic balls running on a steel race.
HTH
Hambini
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Polluting YouTube since 2016 - views expressed are my own...
Bearings geometry has over a century of engineering experience and is anything but simple. Judging spinning a bearing on his hands can’t tell anything. You have the bearing geometry and the bearing seat (hub) geometry and the axles geometry (concentricity, cylindricity, perpendicularity...), they all interact between each other’s.alcatraz wrote:If your hubs have a preload mechanism I think affordable ceramic bearings are an option.
[...]
Ceramic bearings that don't cost a fortune have more play in them. This play is a big no-no in hubs where you can't eliminate it.
[..]
Some steel bearings have poor tolerances too. I like skf for their low play. They make my wheels feel very solid, even when the hubs are poorly designed with too small bearings these bearings have made them usable. ..
If you have the exact ref of a bearing and assuming the manufacturer did things properly (and not for the sake of faster production), you can swap to an higher grade, lower seal or change material.
Now going for no name, non known geometry manufacturer will lead to poor performance under load (regardless how they spin in hand without load), the difference between a good and bad geometry interaction is in hundreds of a mm.
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I have had good experiences with HSC bearings in the past. Not as expensive but they actually develop their beaings for cycling, not just sell industrial hybrids under a cycling brand.
Fairwheel still sells them.
Frankly if you have a nice set of new wheels I wouldn't bother pulling the bearings and replacing them until they have done a season or two. If you are then going to do a service might as well put good bearings in then.
Fairwheel still sells them.
Frankly if you have a nice set of new wheels I wouldn't bother pulling the bearings and replacing them until they have done a season or two. If you are then going to do a service might as well put good bearings in then.
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You mean Campagnolo USB bearings found in Bora Ultra wheels? Are these truly the pinnacle? I hear that difference is noticeable in drag.hambini wrote:C36's post sums everything up.
The only ceramic that is broadly any good is Campag Cult, Which is a FAG product. The bearing races are much harder than normal ceramic bearings so they last a long time.
Ceramic bearings are not truly ceramic, they are usually hybrid so they have ceramic balls running on a steel race.
HTH
Hambini
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I deliberately avoid purchasing components with ceramic bearings because as Hambini pointed out, most use steel races which will ultimately dent when you hop off a curb or something similar and then you have a gritty, overpriced mess of bearings that need to be replaced.
I don't think the USB is a FAG derivative but the CULT is. Don't take that as gospel though, that is from the Schaeffler rep who is by no means a cyclist or the sales guy for campag.mpulsiv wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:49 pmYou mean Campagnolo USB bearings found in Bora Ultra wheels? Are these truly the pinnacle? I hear that difference is noticeable in drag.hambini wrote:C36's post sums everything up.
The only ceramic that is broadly any good is Campag Cult, Which is a FAG product. The bearing races are much harder than normal ceramic bearings so they last a long time.
Ceramic bearings are not truly ceramic, they are usually hybrid so they have ceramic balls running on a steel race.
HTH
Hambini
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Polluting YouTube since 2016 - views expressed are my own...
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USB bearing use caeramic ball but the standard steel HB-RE124 cups and HB-RE022 cones found in the standard bearings. USB bearing require grease to stop rust and must be serviced regularly or brinelling set in. The CULT bearing have hardened stainless steel cups and cones so they can be run on a thin oil layer only. The cups and cones being very hard are much more resistant to brinelling than the standard races. Unlike most stainless steel bearing parts, this steel is not prone to pitting which normally plauges stainless bearings.
USB is not worth the money in my view. CULT almost is, it's properly engineered.
USB is not worth the money in my view. CULT almost is, it's properly engineered.
Yeah, what bm0p700f said. Ceramic balls are the same in USB and CULT, the difference being the races. USB requires grease, CULT just some light oil. I’ve said it before but if water would stay wet in a CULT bearing, that would be all the lube you need it seems. I use a light synthetic oil and just clean and blow them out every now and then with compressed air. They really do seem impervious to water, with the treated steel races... what’s Campy’s marketing term... Crontitec or something like that. I don’t know of any other “ceramic” bearings that aren’t actually hybrids.
Last edited by Calnago on Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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That fits with what the Schaeffler man said. Cronitect is Schaefflers hardening process.
There is a bit of marketing stuff here
https://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien ... _en_en.pdf
The friction chart towards the end is a bit misleading. A bearing with no seals on oil against a sealed bearing on grease - hardly fair but I guess that's marketing for you.
Hambini
There is a bit of marketing stuff here
https://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien ... _en_en.pdf
The friction chart towards the end is a bit misleading. A bearing with no seals on oil against a sealed bearing on grease - hardly fair but I guess that's marketing for you.
Hambini
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Polluting YouTube since 2016 - views expressed are my own...
Yes, there’s always marketing involved. My super record cranks with Cult bearings and no seals will spin if you blow on them. Really quite amazing. But without any grease or seals, I’d imagine a similarly constructed steel bearing might do the same thing. Trouble is, you can’t run a steel bearing like that, without grease, and you’d probably want seals in place to keep grease in and water out. So, the spin of Cult bearings is impressive, but I really like them for their durability first and foremost.
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Indeed... the friction is seal and grease first... SKF developed an app where you can calculate friction and it is really clear there. Btw if you download the skf manual you have like 20 pages on bearing friction...Calnago wrote:Yes, there’s always marketing involved. My super record cranks with Cult bearings and no seals will spin if you blow on them. Really quite amazing. But without any grease or seals, I’d imagine a similarly constructed steel bearing might do the same thing. Trouble is, you can’t run a steel bearing like that, without grease, and you’d probably want seals in place to keep grease in and water out. So, the spin of Cult bearings is impressive, but I really like them for their durability first and foremost.
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