Dura Ace 9000 hub noise

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kgibbo1868
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:36 pm

by kgibbo1868

Hi, I noticed a strange noise coming from my rear hub on my c50 tubs a few weeks ago. I took them apart to see what’s going on and try to fix it. I bought the wheels second hand and was told they only had minimal use they definitely looked in like new condition so I was a bit surprised when the ball bearings fell out quite easily.... the cups did not feel smooth either, it felt like they had small ridges on them. Also, backing out the locknut was much tighter than it should be as I needed to use pliers (gently) to back it out. I greased everything and reassembled the hub the the noise is still there. Any advise as to what I should try next? I’m thinking about a new axle and ball bearings, but my real question is can the cups be replaced?
Thanks for your help!!
:beerchug:
Pain is my friend!

alcatraz
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

You need to take the axle and bearings out, wipe the grease off the races+cones and inspect them carefully. Check for pits.

Check the freehub bearings with it off the hub so you can exclude them.

Check the ball bearings. Check that you have the right number of bearings on both sides.

You'd be surprised of whats possible. Maybe the hubs have been relaced to new rims?

If you are lucky maybe you just had the issue of too tight preload on the bearings. There should be just a tiniest hint of play in the axle after tightening the locknut. This play will be taken out by the skewer tension after you've mounted the wheel. Test for play by moving wheel sideways after mounting. Play should be zero then.

Try to tighten your skewer with about the same tension each time.

/a

by Weenie


C36
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Just maintained my C24Tubular this weekend, internals are very similar. When you mention the locknut guess you mean the outer cone (that is threaded and adjusts the compression). It may have been too tight, I removed mine just using a rag for a better grip.
On your case I see 3 options:
- over compressed bearing that damaged the tracks
- dirt on the hub or dirt during reassembly
- over compressed bearing during reassembly that cause this poor smoothness.

If the bearings have been damage you could see it inspecting balls and tracks. They should have a “mirror” polished surface, grooves, pitting, wear traces would indicate something wrong.

You may have introduced (or not totally removed) dirt in the hub (really do not need much). Always use 100% clean rags and buckets, clean the components 3 times (ideally in separate buckets). I use compressed air to ensure the pieces are dry (easier to blow dirt) before lubricating back. Finally during réinstallation I ensure I have clean hands (oily hands = sticky for dirt).

Finally at the moment to reassemble the hub and compress the bearing, adjust based on the play and smooth bearing. Adjusting the outer cone you can feel all the different stages (loose / smooth / too tight). Finally worth riding with the bike a bit and recheck if there is no play that developed.



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kgibbo1868
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:36 pm

by kgibbo1868

Thanks for the replys, if the cup is damaged can it be replaced?
Pain is my friend!

alcatraz
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

I don't think so, usually not. However keep in mind that the cup/cone system is designed to wear out the cups last. Before the cups start to show significant wear it will be the balls, after the balls it will be the cones, then cups.

I mean there is overlap of course, of these things wearing out, but do an inspection before assuming the worst.

There are many bearings in a rear hub, 4 in fact. One being gritty can cause the whole wheel to be noisy. Just detect it in time, service and you should be ok.

Adjusting the preload is something many aren't very equipped to do as we only have two arms. You kind of need three arms (or a vice) to do a good job. There is a good chance it simply got too tight. :)

kgibbo1868
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:36 pm

by kgibbo1868

alcatraz wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 am
I don't think so, usually not. However keep in mind that the cup/cone system is designed to wear out the cups last. Before the cups start to show significant wear it will be the balls, after the balls it will be the cones, then cups.

I mean there is overlap of course, of these things wearing out, but do an inspection before assuming the worst.

There are many bearings in a rear hub, 4 in fact. One being gritty can cause the whole wheel to be noisy. Just detect it in time, service and you should be ok.

Adjusting the preload is something many aren't very equipped to do as we only have two arms. You kind of need three arms (or a vice) to do a good job. There is a good chance it simply got too tight. :)
OK, thanks for the advise!!!! :beerchug:
Pain is my friend!

C36
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Despite the “noise”was the bearing spinning relatively freely or felt tight?
First case may be dirt, the second too much preload.



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mattr
Posts: 3831
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Think the last "replaceable" cup hub was 7800. Even then, you usually needed to cannibalise another hub to get the parts as shimano never seemed to stock them. Or even list them.

At which point it was (usually) easier to just replace the entire hub. (which is what i did with a damaged D-A hub)
In this case you'd probably need to find someone who has trashed a rim and buy the old hub.

Unless the cups are still ok!

C36
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

mattr wrote:Think the last "replaceable" cup hub was 7800. Even then, you usually needed to cannibalise another hub to get the parts as shimano never seemed to stock them. Or even list them.

At which point it was (usually) easier to just replace the entire hub. (which is what i did with a damaged D-A hub)
In this case you'd probably need to find someone who has trashed a rim and buy the old hub.

Unless the cups are still ok!
cones are availableImage (here jus an example of the axle assembly), external are “pressed” on the hub (the cup that turns versus the force should be the one pressed... as per basic bearing engineering, too often forgotten) then technically more difficult to remove.

Side note, “cone bearing” or “cartridge bearing” follow the same rule... and industrially both types exist (somehow some people think that cone bearing is a sort of “older” technology...)


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mattr
Posts: 3831
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

kgibbo1868 wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:03 am
but my real question is can the cups be replaced?
C36 wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:12 am
cones are available
Yeah, cones, axles, bearings, lock nuts, freely available. Cups. Not so much.
And i've spent *far* too much time doing bearing design and specification over the last 20 years. Current job involves absolutely none at all. Which suits me fine.

kgibbo1868
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:36 pm

by kgibbo1868

Thanks to everyone for their advice. Last week I completely disassembled the rear hub, cleaned everything spotless and reassembled with high quality grease. Smooth and silent, I am stoked! Today I did the same to the front hub as well. I am really impressed how easy it is to service these hubs, no real special tools needed other than a 14mm Allen wrench to get the free hub body off.

Any thoughts on how often these hubs should be serviced?
Pain is my friend!

mattr
Posts: 3831
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

I crack mine open once every year/18 months for a look.
They usually don't actually *need* anything, but i give them a quick clean and fresh grease, even the ones that i ran on a cross bike for a season only needed the outside scrubbing and the mud picking out of the freehub grooves/endcaps despite the extensive dirt/clean/degrease cycle over 16-18 rounds of CX. Insides were spotless. Cleaned and refilled anyway.

I've recently serviced some with approx 30000 all weather km on them. Just needed a clean and fresh grease and bearings. Probably could have put the bearings straight back in, but i've no idea if they'd do another 30000 km. And i have a jar of the right bearings for D-A. (Grade 25 stainless.)

C36
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

kgibbo1868 wrote:Thanks to everyone for their advice. Last week I completely disassembled the rear hub, cleaned everything spotless and reassembled with high quality grease. Smooth and silent, I am stoked! Today I did the same to the front hub as well. I am really impressed how easy it is to service these hubs, no real special tools needed other than a 14mm Allen wrench to get the free hub body off.

Any thoughts on how often these hubs should be serviced?
Great! Glad you got them back!
For service frequency once a year if you are doing good weather rides, if not I usually do at start of winter with grease and at start of good season with oil.... or when I feel them not as good as they should.


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by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

As said clean every thing up. If the freehub cup has gone the freehub can be replaced. If the nds cup has gone that it. The axle assembly is not cheap.

With Dura ace hubs they are best serviced preventatively.

If you open it up for s look. Clean everything up replace the bearings and regressed. This is how you stop cup and cone wear or at least slow it down. If you leave till the point of wear it too late. If maintained the way I describe every 5000 miles you will get 50000 miles from these hubs.

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