Aero data from 19 wheels by Hambini

[robeambro]

To be fair I can't find any info online on "hambone" being a racial slur (you would expect this to be mentioned somewhere), but if a ban is assigned on the basis of it being one, so be it. As long as we can have all parties to calm down.

[tanhalt]

While I may get a longer ban for trying to dodge the original ban. I wanted to post this as my reasoning has not been justified and has been glossed over.

Tom Anhalt repeatedly called me Hambone, this is a derogatory term given by British colonialists to peasants of predominantly Indian origin. Effectively giving the bones to the peasants to chew on after the rich Colonialsts had eaten the good bits.

Tom claims this is an Autocorrect and I have pointed it out to him before that it was a slur but he chose to ignore it. Therefore I said what I did and I'm completely unrepentant and will not apologize. A lot of people have accused me of crossing a line, this is why that was crossed.

I am quite tired of trying to defend? my protocol and methods. I don't do them for any monetary gain and what set out as a few engineers using their free time constructively has been systematically dissected to the nth degree by what I would class as people with a vested interest. Some people haven't liked the results and taken issue with it. They are free to do that but I will no longer answer their questions because their motives are not to further understand or make an informed choice, it's to find a bit of wiggle room to get wheel X into a better position. I feel I have given much more info than other manufacturers have with regards their test methods and I went so far as to give an error margin - a statistic that I have not seen on a wheel test anywhere else.

And I would also like to take the opportunity to all of the posters who have given me support both on here, in my emails and on twitter.

Thankyou

Hambini

Wait a minute...you're making things up again. Until you brought up that you considered the nickname racist in this thread, you had NEVER told me that before. If you'll notice, I haven't called you by that nickname since. To say you told me that before and I ignored it us a total fabrication.

That said, being unaware of the particular history of that term for Brits (being a "colonial" and all) I apologize if it caused offense to you and won't use it any longer. Where I'm from, it doesn't have that connotation (in fact there's even a "Hambone's BBQ" restaurant in LA )

And yeah...moderators usually don't take kindly to people circumventing their bans...good luck with that.

[mag]

Re Hambone: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... e#p1427306
Anyway in such cases one still needs to take a deep breath and reply only after calming down. I too sometimes wrote some nasty reply here and there, but instead of posting it I just deleted it and then wrote another, much more muted one after few hours of doing something else. Take a bike ride before replying for example.

[tanhalt]

Deleted: accidental second post when trying to edit.

[nachetetm]

One of the problems we encouter here is that this thread is incomplete because some arguing is happening at the same time in slowtwitch.

I keep thinking that criticism can happen with both a positive and a negative attitude, but only the positive one brings a reasonable outcome. A good example of positive attitude is evident in slowtwitch, were Josh Poertner raised a very interesting concern regarding the position of the rider in Hambini's protocol and for how long this rider needs to keep that position. Very elegantly, without any negative tone, he made the kind of comment that can make Hambini to re-formulate his experiment to come with a more robust result. That is how science usually works; it rarely nails an experiment at the first try, benefitting from external input. Someone will point now that this concern has been previously raised in this thread, and he will be right. The difference is that the majority of the people criticizing Hambini's job are doing it to trash his results, not to add value to his data. Poertner on the other side mentioned it much more politely and he backed up his comment with some of his own research experience in the topic, showing a much higher knowledge of the topic than the majority of the critics here.

So yes, positive criticizing is good, while negative criticizing and insulting caused the derailing of this topic.

[ericoschmitt]

Not sure if "people trying to trash his results" include me or not, but I really want value and credibility ADDED to this test. And that's why I asked questions.

[robeambro]

Re Hambone: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... e#p1427306
Anyway in such cases one still needs to take a deep breath and reply only after calming down. I too sometimes wrote some nasty reply here and there, but instead of posting it I just deleted it and then wrote another, much more muted one after few hours of doing something else. Take a bike ride before replying for example.

To be fair, Hambini is going for BS, and I hope moderators see through it.

He said, and I quote, "Tom Anhalt repeatedly called me Hambone".

Three things are wrong.

1. A quick search in this discussion yields only one instance where Tom Anhalt used that term.

2. Te fact that it was a racial slur has not been confirmed by any source. While I don't want to assume he has made this up, I can't see any info at all online about it (happy to be proven wrong with links to relevant literature though).

3. even if this were offensive to Hambini in any way that general people would not be aware of, Tom Anhalt said he won't be using that name again, and he doesn't seem to have used it.

[TiCass]

Re Hambone: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... e#p1427306
Anyway in such cases one still needs to take a deep breath and reply only after calming down. I too sometimes wrote some nasty reply here and there, but instead of posting it I just deleted it and then wrote another, much more muted one after few hours of doing something else. Take a bike ride before replying for example.

To be fair, Hambini is going for BS, and I hope moderators see through it.

He said, and I quote, "Tom Anhalt repeatedly called me Hambone".

Three things are wrong.

1. A quick search in this discussion yields only one instance where Tom Anhalt used that term.

2. Te fact that it was a racial slur has not been confirmed by any source. While I don't want to assume he has made this up, I can't see any info at all online about it (happy to be proven wrong with links to relevant literature though).

3. even if this were offensive to Hambini in any way that general people would not be aware of, Tom Anhalt said he won't be using that name again, and he doesn't seem to have used it.

Dude... literally the first that shows up when you google it.


For further reading... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hambone

[RyanH]

For those who are sad and/or see an evil ploy behind the ban.. Hambini did not get banned because he published his study, or because he tried to demolish the status quo.
He has been banned because he repeatedly name-called people who questioned his methods. (and some of his followers such as otoman and ryanw seem prone to do the same,)

I would guess the moderators had already warned him in private not to continue, and he ignored those. Is this the way of debate you like to see on a forum, where we insult each other personally cause we don't agree? I honestly don't understand you guys..

Science is good and useful, and I would really love to see further contributions from Hambini cause they enrich our knowledge), but I'd also like to see mutual respect rather than insults.

This^^^

I've been keeping track of the SlowTwitch thread as well and in there he suggested that Damon Rinard should slit his wrists. Is that the type of conduct that we should turn a blind eye towards because he's producing information that we want to see?
See #2 on Forum Conduct: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... =7&t=95160

Also, I've watched this thread pretty closely and I'm baffled that some can say the "challengers" should be moderated and not Hambini. There have been a few instances where it got out of line but for the most part, the questioning has been constructive. It's called the scientific method, we need more of it...not this blind acceptance that data being presented by someone independent is all of a sudden 100% accurate and to be believed without question.

[robeambro]

Re Hambone: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... e#p1427306
Anyway in such cases one still needs to take a deep breath and reply only after calming down. I too sometimes wrote some nasty reply here and there, but instead of posting it I just deleted it and then wrote another, much more muted one after few hours of doing something else. Take a bike ride before replying for example.

To be fair, Hambini is going for BS, and I hope moderators see through it.

He said, and I quote, "Tom Anhalt repeatedly called me Hambone".

Three things are wrong.

1. A quick search in this discussion yields only one instance where Tom Anhalt used that term.

2. Te fact that it was a racial slur has not been confirmed by any source. While I don't want to assume he has made this up, I can't see any info at all online about it (happy to be proven wrong with links to relevant literature though).

3. even if this were offensive to Hambini in any way that general people would not be aware of, Tom Anhalt said he won't be using that name again, and he doesn't seem to have used it.

Dude... literally the first that shows up when you google it.


For further reading... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hambone

Sure it's not flattering, but I was talking about it being ""a derogatory term given by British colonialists to peasants of predominantly Indian origin."

[tanhalt]

Re Hambone: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... e#p1427306
Anyway in such cases one still needs to take a deep breath and reply only after calming down. I too sometimes wrote some nasty reply here and there, but instead of posting it I just deleted it and then wrote another, much more muted one after few hours of doing something else. Take a bike ride before replying for example.

To be fair, Hambini is going for BS, and I hope moderators see through it.

He said, and I quote, "Tom Anhalt repeatedly called me Hambone".

Three things are wrong.

1. A quick search in this discussion yields only one instance where Tom Anhalt used that term.

2. Te fact that it was a racial slur has not been confirmed by any source. While I don't want to assume he has made this up, I can't see any info at all online about it (happy to be proven wrong with links to relevant literature though).

3. even if this were offensive to Hambini in any way that general people would not be aware of, Tom Anhalt said he won't be using that name again, and he doesn't seem to have used it.

To be fair, I did use that nickname for him in the Slowtwitch thread a couple of times. But again, until he mentioned it yesterday, nobody has batted an eye or made mention of it possibly being a racial slur before then. In no way had he told me that previously.

No problem. I was ignorant of that possibility and am now better educated. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

[robeambro]

Re Hambone: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... e#p1427306
Anyway in such cases one still needs to take a deep breath and reply only after calming down. I too sometimes wrote some nasty reply here and there, but instead of posting it I just deleted it and then wrote another, much more muted one after few hours of doing something else. Take a bike ride before replying for example.

To be fair, Hambini is going for BS, and I hope moderators see through it.

He said, and I quote, "Tom Anhalt repeatedly called me Hambone".

Three things are wrong.

1. A quick search in this discussion yields only one instance where Tom Anhalt used that term.

2. Te fact that it was a racial slur has not been confirmed by any source. While I don't want to assume he has made this up, I can't see any info at all online about it (happy to be proven wrong with links to relevant literature though).

3. even if this were offensive to Hambini in any way that general people would not be aware of, Tom Anhalt said he won't be using that name again, and he doesn't seem to have used it.

To be fair, I did use that nickname for him in the Slowtwitch thread a couple of times. But again, until he mentioned it yesterday, nobody has batted an eye or made mention of it possibly being a racial slur before then.

No problem. I was ignorant of that possibility and am now better educated. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

Yeah and to be honest if they ban you for this I think it may even be be fair enough*. But I'm happy, since you seem to be understanding of the error in your ways. Which I hope Hambini will be as well.

*ultimately, it's a 1-week ban for each of you guys, almost sounds like moderators are lapidating people here..

[tanhalt]

Yeah and to be honest if they ban you for this I think it may even be be fair enough*. But I'm happy, since you seem to be understanding of the error in your ways. Which I hope Hambini will be as well.

*ultimately, it's a 1-week ban for each of you guys, almost sounds like moderators are lapidating people here..

Now you made me look up "lapidating"...ironically, I was watching "The Life of Brian" just the other night...

[nachetetm]

It's called the scientific method, we need more of it...not this blind acceptance that data being presented by someone independent is all of a sudden 100% accurate and to be believed without question.

The scientific method usually works when is done among peers. Unfortunately, there is more Dunning-Kruger effect than peer-review in this thread.

Once said that, it is true that Hambini lost his manners badly more than a few times. He has been provoked sometimes, but that shouldn't be an excuse for replying badly. There are other ways to deal with that.

[ddsg]

Re Hambone: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... e#p1427306
Anyway in such cases one still needs to take a deep breath and reply only after calming down. I too sometimes wrote some nasty reply here and there, but instead of posting it I just deleted it and then wrote another, much more muted one after few hours of doing something else. Take a bike ride before replying for example.

To be fair, Hambini is going for BS, and I hope moderators see through it.

He said, and I quote, "Tom Anhalt repeatedly called me Hambone".

Three things are wrong.

1. A quick search in this discussion yields only one instance where Tom Anhalt used that term.

2. Te fact that it was a racial slur has not been confirmed by any source. While I don't want to assume he has made this up, I can't see any info at all online about it (happy to be proven wrong with links to relevant literature though).

3. even if this were offensive to Hambini in any way that general people would not be aware of, Tom Anhalt said he won't be using that name again, and he doesn't seem to have used it.

To be fair to Hambini, Tom did call him Hambone multiple times over on Slowtwitch. I've been following the discussion on both forums and it's quite interesting as Hambini does not have many (if any) supporters on ST as opposed to WW.

I'm quite appreciative of the questions that were raised, regardless of any alleged bias on the part of those who raised them. Good science stands up to scrutiny and pointing out flaws in protocols and results benefits us all. The discussion left me with a less favourable (but not entirely unfavourable) opinion of the results of the study, mainly due to the tone and response from Hambini. Notably:

1. Hambini's personal insults towards people who criticize his results. This criticism hasn't been limited to those with a more combative approach like tanhalt, though I do appreciate that the bulk was levied at tanhalt and that buttons were being pushed.

2. Hambini's propensity to stretch the truth. I'm talking specifically about him claiming that Flo has a practice of "paying prominent forum members in a number of popular cycling/tri forums to endorse their products". This entire accusation is based on tanhalt admitting that Flo sent him a single free wheel after his garage was broken into and a number of bikes and wheelsets stolen, including a wheel he purchased from Flo. Flo has been an active and standup member of Slowtwitch and actions like these should be encouraged, not penalized. Their conduct should obviously have no bearing on the results (and I will definitely think twice before buying any of their wheels), but I believe that the personal accusations against them are unwarranted.

3. The lawyer letter mention. This is a weird one as Flo has categorically denied sending it, whereas Hambini has doubled down and mentioned that it will be "uploaded in due course". One of the sides is going to come out of this with their reputation severely damaged. I don't understand why Flo would claim that they didn't send one if they did as they could be so easily proven wrong. I also don't understand why Hambini would claim that they did send one if they didn't as that sounds like a libel lawsuit waiting to happen. I would however note that Hambini initially mentioned that 2 companies sent lawyer letters and that he would not specify which ones based on advice (I presume legal) he received. Then he specifically named Flo but would not upload a copy of the letter (no mention of the second company). Now the letter will be "uploaded in due course".